BBC Focus Magazine

[Gabriel]

In a recent news, the journalist Robert Krulwich shows a video in which says colour pink doesn't exist ( check out here http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/ ... e-not-pink includes the explanatory video). According to this, colors are just waves of light in the external world and we can see it because our nervous system operates doing represantations of external world and generating adequate behaviours to its circumstance (Lorenz, 1981; Martin, 1981; Shepperd, 1983). But I don't think like that. I think pink color does exist because we have been had many experiences with pink. Marurana and Porksen (2005) says colour isn't something external, but something that occurs in the interior of an organism triggered by an external source of light. A colour is what you see, what you live, "pink" is just the name of our experience independently from the spectral composition of light (Maturana & Porksen, 2005). The idea that our nervous system can operate as stated in the video, implies an objective and independent reality from the observer (Maturana & Mpodozis, 1987), but as Maturana (1974) states, it wouldn't be possible for us to distinguish any feature of the external world through our nerve cells.
As you see, there are two different perspectives, so, I invite you to join me in this discussion. I would be glad to read your opinions. Does exist pink colour or not?
Literature cited
Lorenz, K. (1981) The Foundation of Ethology. New York: Springer-Verlag.
Martin, H. (1981) in Principles of neural science. E. R. Kandel & J. H. Scwartz (Eds.).: Elsevier North Holland.
Maturana, H. (1974) Cognitive startegies. In H. Von Forester (Ed.), Cybernetics of cybernetics (pp. 457-469). Urbana, Il: Biological Computer Laboratory.
Maturana, H. & Mpodozis, J. (1987) Percepcion: configuracion conductual del objeto. Arch. Biol. Med. Exp., 20, 319-324.
Maturana, H. & Porksen, B. (2005) Del ser al hacer, los orígenes de la biologia del conocer (2nd ed.). Santiago, Chile: J.C. Sáez.
Shepperd, G. (1983) Neurobiology. Oxford University Press.

[M Paul Lloyd]

I believe we covered this subject a while ago but given that was probably pre big wipe and on the old forum it's high time we went over it again.

As I see it (no pun intended) pink exists for the person viewing that colour.

However one persons interpretation of pink, or indeed any colour, is probably a very subjective matter, so what I think of as 'pink' may not be the same as what you think of as pink. Yes we agree that it is the same shade of whitish red but beyond that my mental image is likely to be somewhat different to yours.
I, for example, have always had problems with deciding when exactly red becomes orange, because unlike pink, which is either white, pink or red, when I look at different shades of orange it slips from yellow to a deep yellow becoming increasing deeper until......... well that's rather my point, when does it become a true shade of red and not just a rich shade of orange?

But I'm wide open to discussion on this.

By way of an analogy I would suggest it is possibly similar with our interpretation of sounds and perhaps why different people have different tastes in music?

[Lateralman]

My psychic dog tells me that there is no such thing as colour but I do not believe her because I am always seeing pink elephants.

[Shadowwolf]

Mr Lateral I think we could probably extend Mr Gabriel's post some respect and at least initially not respond with what is essentially gibberish

[Fleck]

Pink does exist, I can see it (Flecknell; 2012. Dr Zoidberg: 2006)

[KingPhillip]

Objectively, aren't colors photons/electromagnetic radiation oscillating at certain frequencies?

We have a full spectrum from infrared to ultraviolet. If we include synesthetes' ability to see colors from sound, then we include the radio waves.

Pink would just occupy a range of frequencies just as orange would. Our ability to distinguish the colors rests on the internal makeup of our eyes. Some are color-blind to red or blue and pink may be a casualty if one can't see red.

[Lateralman]

So, pink is something that we only see but in regards to other creatures, some see only UV light and some see only in black and white ect.

Therefore how can we be sure that there are not many other colours whose wavelengths we cannot see that really do exist. Like they exist and are real colours to other creatures, unbeknown to us.

Given that, according to the article, our own eyes have juggled with the colour spectrum to make up a colour that does not exist.

Like pink?

[Lateralman]

Can a bee see a rainbow? Alternatively, does it see mixtures of UV light? Is a dog aware of colours?
Alternatively, does it only view the world in shades of grey?

The question I ask is what is ‘colour’ to those are unaware of its existence.

For surly if you are unaware of its existence than it cannot exist. Therefore to answer the expanded question, ‘does pink or any other colour exist’ the answer has to be no.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Whether a creature is sensitive to any particular wavelength of light or not is of no consequence to the known existence of that wavelength of light Lateral.

We cannot see x-rays but we know they exist due to their effect on, if nothing else, undeveloped photographic film sealed inside closed containers.
Equally a person who is colour blind may well confuse red with green (the most common form of colour blindness I believe? ) but that does not mean to say that neither colour truly exists.
Now does it??

Besides the idea that dogs cannot see colour is a myth, yes they have fewer retinal cones than we do which would make colours somewhat subdued but they still see in colour, my dog certainly knows how to distinguish a brown treat (his favourite) from a red or yellow one.
As for bee's or indeed any insect their vision is of an entirely different order with the majority being bi-chromatic which is quite limited but has it ever occurred to you why flowers are so very, very colourful?
It's to attract insects.

[Lateralman]

Only thoughts Mr Lloyd, there may be better examples. If we were, all colour blind then colours cannot exist, can they? Anyhow, I was going to add.

In addition, if the answer is no, then what is it that we see? Is colour an illusion, specifically tailored for human eyes?

This leads me to another question, off topic but perhaps relevant. Does perspective exist?

The ancient Egyptians, the Romans, the people from the medieval era, all their drawings of people and landscapes were in 2D. Yet their sculptures were in 3D. Why? Why is it when these many talented artisans were painting and drawing that they could not see the world in 3D?

I find this puzzling.

[Fleck]

Colour does exist it is merely the part of the spectrum that we are able to see. Perhaps some people do see it differently who cares as long as we all refer to what we see as the same.

You think too much, you'll give yourself a headache

[M Paul Lloyd]

You think too much, you'll give yourself a headache

They do say that it helps prevent the premature onset of dementia though.

Is colour an illusion, specifically tailored for human eyes?

No I suspect it's rather the other way around, our eyes have adapted to see colours because it helps identify safe foods and nasty insects such as wasps.

Why is it when these many talented artisans were painting and drawing that they could not see the world in 3D?
I find this puzzling.

As you say a little off topic, but never mind, thing is what we consider to be ancient 'art' is in fact more often a form of information display in a culture such as ancient Egypt were many were illiterate so accuracy of detail becomes far more important than 'arty' perspective which does tend to give a distorted view of the things we see around us. It's not that our ancestors were ignorant of perspective, on the contrary the Ancient Greeks were messing about with it around 500bc, but they had greater levels of reading and writing so did not need to eliminate perspective in favour of 2 dimensional graphic accuracy. For example if the ancient Egyptians were unable to conceive of perspective then they would hardly have been able to produce such incredibly accurate 3 dimensional carvings and statues.

[Willxx]

I am colour blind to a degree and have had many occasions where light blue/green brown/green "hints of white" type paints etc ie lighter shades are indistinguishable to me but put a colour chart in front of me and I have a full range of colour vision.
Its really only the interpretation and context that cause me problems, a non specific light shade could be one of several colours but put into a spectrum it is still (usually) obvious where it should go

[Jamie]

Only thoughts Mr Lloyd, there may be better examples. If we were, all colour blind then colours cannot exist, can they?

Perhaps the concept of colour wouldn't exist, but the different frequencies of light would.

[Fleck]

Only thoughts Mr Lloyd, there may be better examples. If we were, all colour blind then colours cannot exist, can they?

If we all died would that mean the earth cannot exist then?

[Lateralman]

Thank you, okay chaps staying with the debate another couple of thoughts.

Then again perhaps pink is there but the blue sky is so dominant it obscures it. If the sky were white, perhaps pink, lying diffused next to red would be visible.

In addition, as an observer can view a rainbow from any distant angle they manoeuvre to and they will still see the rainbow as a flat on bow.

As an idea, I would suggest that a rainbow is not a bow at all but a spectrum of ‘Colour Dome’ (half a bubble) with the observer only being able to see the outer rim colours of the dome, the rest being invisible to the naked eye.

That is unless it reveals itself, in part, with one rainbow inside of another in the form of a double or triple rainbow.

[Shadowwolf]

Honestly, what use are such thoughts if they spring entirely from being simply uninformed on the basics?

If you don't know how rainbows occur then find out before you start making stuff up, it's not hard, there's good information on rainbows right here on Wikipedia.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Thank you, okay chaps staying with the debate another couple of thoughts.

Then again perhaps pink is there but the blue sky is so dominant it obscures it. If the sky were white, perhaps pink, lying diffused next to red would be visible.

In addition, as an observer can view a rainbow from any distant angle they manoeuvre to and they will still see the rainbow as a flat on bow.

As an idea, I would suggest that a rainbow is not a bow at all but a spectrum of ‘Colour Dome’ (half a bubble) with the observer only being able to see the outer rim colours of the dome, the rest being invisible to the naked eye.

That is unless it reveals itself, in part, with one rainbow inside of another in the form of a double or triple rainbow.

Numbel futtlepokes, spaglly throtums nester pagglesplurt ne publicantlespags bu bu mimbles. Paggley.

[Lateralman]

Lads may I draw your attention to the original question. “The colour pink does not exist.”

Because I know nothing, I question what is known.

Because what is known, is open to question.

In other words, everything in a forum is debatable.

[Lateralman]

Okay, I read the information on Wiki. Rainbows appear as an ark from whatever angle you view them from, within roughly 42 odd degrees.

If that is correct then why can’t they be half a bubble?

If rainbows were really only half colour bubbles, this would mean that there really is no end of the rainbow.

Moreover no pot of gold!