BBC Focus Magazine

[M Paul Lloyd]

I they where, "conservationists at heart" and witnessed what we were doing to the planet. They would get rid of us.

But wouldn't that be rather against the environmentalist ideals?

[Dark One]

I've always thought it far more likely that we'll be the ones doing the darstardly invading. We have no trouble killing millons of our own just to secure oil to run our cars, so killing aliens that dont even look vaguely human wouldn't be much trouble for us. Maybe the best thing we can do for the galaxy is wipe ourselves out.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Oh no Dark One, I was rather looking forward to a future of universal domination.

[Shadowwolf]

I they where, "conservationists at heart" and witnessed what we were doing to the planet. They would get rid of us.

It's this kind of ill thought out reasoning that makes me loath 'The Day The Earth Stood Still.' The blinding and inherent contradiction of an incredibly advanced intelligence or union thereof randomly showing up and categorising humanity as too violent, then solving this conundrum by doing the greatest violence imaginable via total genocide just in case we might be an issue in some vague imaginary future. Or we have this fantasy Earth of perfection that humanity has ruined as though Earth is meant to be a pristine bauble of ecological nirvana completely forgetting that humans and what they do are as much a part of the eco-system as anything else. So important is this imaginary Earth that the wholesale termination of humanity in its entirety is the preferred option so that this imaginary pristine world can exist; genocide just so an untouched garden can flourish. But there is no universal mandate for Terra to be anything, sure we should do our utmost not to ruin the place given that we live on it but humans are not preventing Terra as it should be.

...and then we 'retaliate' with violence...

To be honest I just don't see us collectively launching a strike just for the heck of it, there would have to be some level of justification before we vainly attempt to pre-empt what most military and governments expect will be a crushing defeat. The TV / movie trope of the trigger happy military is very misleading and veils the fact that it is the civilian government that calls the shots. It is really incumbent upon the visitor to be most mindful of appearances and how they approach first contact. Given that they would likely know little about whomever was down there I'd expect that they would be extremely cautious so as to avoid any move on their part as being interpreted as hostile. I think they would be cognisant of the potential misunderstandings that could arise from say broadcasting a message with the kind of power that drowns, and thus effectively neutralises our own communications or parking large ships over major cities uninvited.

I've always thought it far more likely that we'll be the ones doing the darstardly invading. [...] Maybe the best thing we can do for the galaxy is wipe ourselves out.

Indeed we might, but it out there may not be all that friendly as those others may look upon us as distantly as we upon them.

[Lateralman]

With an event beyond our control, the planet can be gone in seconds. It is not utopia but for some unknown reason many other life forms have evolved, to live on it. For it is or was at one point balanced.

We are the only species on Earth that is knocking that balance out of sync by bringing about extinction to other species. We kill for sport. Look at what logging alone is doing to terra. What do you think the thread about climate change is all about? We have simply grown too big for our boots, are too greedy and too many. We are nothing special other than being the dominant predator.

Aliens (if they existed and where anything similar to us) will be out there raiding the whole universe and would only do to us small fry, what our technology has done to others. They would not be interested in having a conversation for we have nothing of interest to converse with them about.

In the same, way when we encounter an alien species on terra, mammal, fish, insect or bird we do not stop to converse by saying to the Rhino or the Eagle, “I come in peace!”We simply kill!

What is worse the more intelligent we become, the more dangerous we become. Any alien of a higher intellect that we may one day encounter will be the same.*

Realistically Mr Wolf, in what way do you think humankind has benefited the planet as a life form other than for the benefit of all mankind?

*For further information, I refer you to your 1960’s Topps “Mars Attacks” trading cards in particular card # 19 for pleasant take me to your leader conversations with aliens.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Realistically Mr Wolf, in what way do you think humankind has benefited the planet as a life form other than for the benefit of all mankind?

Forgive me for butting in here but haven't you rather answered your own question there Lateralman?

This planet has benefited the human race since we first evolved and it will continue to do so until we are able to leave it and seek our destiny amongst the stars, or suffer our own self inflicted and miserable doom.
Whatever happens we will never be more than just an insignificant little blip in Earth's long and tumultuous history and when we are gone it can get back to looking after itself as it has done for billions of years, one million years on and I doubt anything of significance would remain to show that we even existed.

As for us being of benefit to the planet, well surely that is irrelevant?

[Shadowwolf]

For it is or was at one point balanced.

No, no it was not. There have been climate changes and mass extinctions before we were ever here, there's no balance there's just the way it is and the only issue is whether it remains clement for us.

We kill for sport.

Yes, as do other animals like our domestic cat or mag pies.

None of the rest really contains any form of justification for the genocide you think is a reasonable course of action by an alien species so that Terra can be be some unsullied bauble until something else ruins it. How does this fantasy notion of how Terra should be justify exterminating all humans?

Realistically Mr Wolf, in what way do you think humankind has benefited the planet as a life form other than for the benefit of all mankind?

Like Mr M says, you answered yourself.

[Lateralman]

Mr Wolf, you are referring to global changes brought about a very long time ago. I do not consider the earth to be an unspoilt bauble until we came along like a bunch of mischievous monkeys and messed it up. Nevertheless, even you will have to concede that we are not improving things concerning the planet. It is not our world. It belongs to all the life that lives on it.

Domestic cats are quick to learn and have adopted our ways. Big cats do not kill for sport neither do magpies at least I have not heard of it. I was referring more to the comment that “aliens might be conservationists at heart.”

Please go back and read the start of “your thread.”

True Mr Lloyd although I was thinking of life forms whose very existence benefits the planet and other life forms directly or indirectly like earthworms for example that aerate the soil. To rephrase the question. Now that humankind has great wisdom and intelligence, what has humankind done to benefit the planet? Meaning we take but what, do we give back?

Nothing as far as I can see, so what do expect to get from an alien encounter?

[M Paul Lloyd]

True Mr Lloyd although I was thinking of life forms whose very existence benefits the planet and other life forms directly or indirectly like earthworms for example that aerate the soil. To rephrase the question. Now that humankind has great wisdom and intelligence, what has humankind done to benefit the planet? Meaning we take but what, do we give back?

Nothing as far as I can see, so what do expect to get from an alien encounter?

Well personally I don't expect to get anything at all from an alien encounter, and that's because I don't think they will have much need of our organically contaminated ball of damp dirt anyway. It has been suggested that biological material would be their resource of choice and its a fine enough idea as far as it goes but it does rather presuppose that these aliens have a similar outlook to existence to our own, but the key word that seems to be missing is 'alien' as in not-of-this-Earth or indeed having any relevance to anything on it, including us.
Given the make up of the greater universe a small odd-ball planet with living things crawling all over it might prove as repugnant to the 'alien' mind set as a cow pat, crawling with flies, maggots, beetles and various bacteria might seem to us as we take a short cut across a field to get to the shops.

[Shadowwolf]

It belongs to all the life that lives on it.

Do they have deeds? As for not improving, that is only as far as we are concerned generally, the planet is no more meant to be green that it is meant to be a barren rock.

Domestic cats are quick to learn and have adopted our ways.

Nonsense.

Please go back and read the start of “your thread.”

No, I'm quite happy to pursue this digression, so please, go ahead and explain how acquiring this fantasy notion of Terra justifies genocide? That or you may retract the suggestion that genocide is a good thing to allow Terra to be a pristine ecological nirvana.

Nothing as far as I can see, so what do expect to get from an alien encounter?

Planets are not sentient entities, thus there is nothing to give anything back to and nothing expecting anything. Hence there is no comparison to ET.

[Shadowwolf]

Right I was a bit rushed so I missed some items.

I was referring more to the comment that “aliens might be conservationists at heart.”

Well that makes no sense then.

It is not our world.

It is until something else comes along and nothing else is asserting any claim currently.

I was thinking of life forms whose very existence benefits the planet and other life forms directly or indirectly like earthworms for example that aerate the soil.

But they don't benefit the planet, like I said there is nothing to extract any benefit, there is no healthy planet or unhealthy planet it just is what it is; whether it is clement towards life is another matter entirely. Worms, aeration and so on are part of an ever changing eco-system of which we are a part of, that eco-system is not the planet. There is no gold standard by which that eco-system can be objectively measured and found wanting or acceptable. It can only be measured against the life forms in it and whats bad for some is often good for others and not one of them, including ourselves have any universally mandated right to find an Earth just so.

However, I'm not really interested in all the opinion that the world is not ours, it belongs to all Earth's creatures etc. You said if ET were conservationists, saw what we were doing then they would get rid of us and I want to know how keeping the Earth as some unsullied garden could possibly justify genocide seen as that's what you seem to think. And don't tell me that aliens will have a different outlook, nothing so concerned for an environment is going to engage in genocide no more than those abhorred by violence will, it's contradictory to their principles.

Oh I'd wager that proferring him would be signing our extermination warrants, in fact, I'd probably help them.

That was in jest btw.

[Shadowwolf]

Just to clarify Lateral, given the context of the surrounding posts to your one it appeared less a random speculation as to what an alien might do and more of a snippet of your personal philosophy. I'd just like to know why or at least why you think an intelligence interested in conservation would engage in genocide of one of those species.

...but it does rather presuppose that these aliens have a similar outlook to existence to our own, but the key word that seems to be missing is 'alien' as in not-of-this-Earth or indeed having any relevance to anything on it, including us.

Indeed there may be some really strange and perhaps unrecognisable intelligences that may have as much difficulty recognising us. However, I don't necessarily find much reason to suppose that most or many would necessarily be so physically removed and those that are probably don't matter much. Our humanoid model happens to work fairly well and most higher order life forms on the planet tend to follow the same basic pattern so I'd imagine that similar could happen elsewhere. As for those that would view us as we do ants are a different order of being entirely - if that's even possible - and are not likely to suddenly appear and take out the Raid anymore than we do if we find a colony in the middle of the wilderness. I'm talking about the ones that build ships, have a civilisation of some description, have motivations, have science and have some manner of presence in the cosmos if such is ultimately possible. The ones that can clearly see we are of a similar ilk even if we are massively behind on the technology scale; the rest don't really matter.

[Lateralman]

Oh no! The blade hath pierced the flesh through a chink in my armour and pressure is being applied!

“If ET where conservationists and saw what we were doing to the planet they would probably get rid of us.” Explain myself! Not once but twice!

I have a buffet of get out of jail cards to answer that one. Please select anyone you fancy.

1.ET wants the planet greenery for bio fuel and we are destroying much of it.
2.ET is coming home and wants to evict us.
3.I did not suggest that ET might ever be a conservationist. You have locked on to a response from a previous suggestion.
4.I am ET and have infiltrated your website from afar and I am trying to convince you to wipe yourselves out before I arrive. (Possible idea for a cheap Si Fi movie.)
5.Picking on me is not going to elicit a big response from other aliens reading this thread.
6.The world has only a few months left so why worry.
7.You are both aliens and are trying to convince us all that you are coming in peace.
8.This is a cheap Si Fi movie.
9.I m off to tell me mum on you.
10.We are being bogged down with minor details of the extinction of humanity and are losing the thread of the thread.
11.The shields are down and she can dinna take much more of this captain.
12.My dog controls me via telepathy.
13.The neighbour’s cat controls my dog and me via telepathy.
14.Where is the dammed cavalry when you need them?
15.Aliens have captured me and they forced me to say it!
16.I was having a bad hair day.
17.All this Icelandic volcanic ash has scrambled my brain.
18.The bloke working my sim has created a glitch in my programme.
19.I m only a feeble jumble of chemicals and can make a mistake.
20.It was Lloyds fault sir!
21.I m after a job with Greenpeace.
22.No, I am not. I want to work at Roswell.
23.No I don’t. I want to be selected to be the alien ambassador.
24.There is no ET it is all a fairytale. Created by ET to make us think that there is no ET.
25.I have to go now and earth up me spuds.
26.Returned mail. Lateralman no longer resides at this address.
27.I witnessed this happening in another dimension.
28.I have a ray gun and I am not afraid to use it.
29.There is a strange woman with a rabbit tattooed on her shoulder knocking on my door.
30.Blood has been shed Mr Wolf! Are you not entertained! ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!

[Shadowwolf]

I have a buffet of get out of jail cards to answer that one. Please select anyone you fancy.

No, what you got there is a gish gallop of a smokescreen and it won't work. You see I'm genuinely interested to see if you think that humanities current ecological track record actually is justification for genocide or why you think alien conservationists at heart would do so, so please, explain your words and reasoning or step away from it as a poorly thought utterance without a long list of noise accompanying it.

Btw seen as you seem to be having trouble with your own words they were, "I[f] they where, "conservationists at heart" and witnessed what we were doing to the planet. They would get rid of us."

[M Paul Lloyd]

Yes Mr.S when it comes to 'higher' intelligences we may well be passed by whilst I accept that those aliens that might be more akin to our 'kind' may view our world with a greedy eye and act accordingly, but my gut feeling is that any space faring life form will have spent a lot more time in space than on some grubby planet and view it accordingly. They would in effect be institutionalised towards living in space.

I know I would be.

So, as I see it, we might see a few hardy prospectors/scientific analysts poking around looking for good stuff they could easily extract from orbit, but as for an all out invasion..... I'm not so sure.

Indeed they may posses remote scanning and extraction techniques that would make any invasion utterly pointless.

They arrive, analyse, extract and leave.

[Lateralman]

At the rate we are multiplying genocide will be our only option to avert a decent to world water wars and cannibalism. Remember Soylant Green?

Either that or it will be compulsory birth control on a global scale a ‘stop at one’ or ‘stop at none’ policy with power and wealth winning out initially. If it should go that way, you have the possibilities for a shortage of females and global revolution.

Breakthroughs in science may avert all of that. I really do not know. If we ‘stopped at none’ for one generation, problem solved.

Believe me when I say I have given much thought to the make believe “Alien Invasion” possibility for some time now and have concluded that there is no right answer to the question.

In fact, I have changed my opinion because I think I have accidently stumbled upon a completely different unexplored reason as to why we are here and ended up with a solution that I do not like and which I find to be very disturbing.

I am not avoiding your original question. If I attempted to answer, no matter what answer I gave, would be wrong. If I told you why you would understand why. This is not meant to be a riddle or a teaser.

When you think about it there is no answer to the question as it is based our own naive childish assumptions and expectations. Assumptions that we have all readily accepted for they are ingrained in our psychological development.

What I think may be the right logical answer needs more gaps filling ‘thought time’ in order to ensure that it is not full of holes.

I might be wrong; in fact, I sincerely hope that I am.

[Shadowwolf]

Believe me when I say I have given much thought to the make believe “Alien Invasion” possibility for some time now and have concluded that there is no right answer to the question.

There is no right or wrong answer as it is all largely speculative, I mean they might not even be able to get here or us there thus any invasion is impossible. However, when you earlier hinted at genocide as an action by conservationist aliens unimpressed by our environmental actions to date, it contained a hint of justifying something that almost has no justification, the aliens merely an ancillary detail; a dangerous direction for thinking as it has been before. Thus I laboured the point off the OP though it was, we simply cannot suggest that such great violence is a reasonable reaction to bad environmental policy.

[M Paul Lloyd]

You know when I were a lad, and it was a few decades ago now I must admit, it was thought that by the end of the 20th century we would have all starved to death due to global food shortages. Fact is the current world population exceeds those 1960's predictions and yet we are still all here and indeed, in the 'developed' nations at least, we have more food than we ever did.
Then again we were all supposed to have persished in nuclear holocaust anyway so it didn't really matter.

So, you know, the incredibly unlikely idea of some poncy aliens arriving and rocking our collective boat doesn't fill me with much dread to be honest. If they come in peace then so be it, a few hand squeezing photoshoots, preferably with a stiff breeze to raise the odd skirt, an address or two to various political fossils and a BBQ to round things off and then they can sod off home as far as I'm concerned.

No really given the state of the world we should be worrying about more important things surely?
Like, when are 'we' going to start colonizing space?

[Shadowwolf]

So we can be the inscrutable 'what if' aliens on some distant civilisations equivalent of National Geographic

[M Paul Lloyd]

Exactly.