BBC Focus Magazine

[M Paul Lloyd]

and then suffer an error 404.

[Thinker]

If you dont believe what would it take in science to prove to you that god is real?

Wow, now you got me. Problem is that even astronauts claim that when you first feel weightlessness you have a spiritual experience. But that is not to say they have been touched by god.

First of all, imagine that you were walking down a country lane on your own and then a bright shaft of light came down from the sky and a bearded fellow the size of a building stood before you and said 'I am GOD! You wanted proof? Well here it is. I am real and I exist and the bible was true, before it was passed down through the ages. Here is the true bible'. To which he hands you a book written in Hebrew or whatever language it was. With that he dissappears and you never see him again.
Imagine that ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Would you tell anyone? Would you show them the book? If you did, what do you think their reaction would be. I think someone would be sympathetic and think that you are completely insane and have found a book from some shoddy old library or even written it yourself and are completely bonkers.
The rather long point I'm trying to make is that A) You could be insane! And need medical help. B) You may have YOUR proof, but noone else will believe you. And I can't see anything in science proving to me that an all powerful 'personal god' exists.

[nemisis39]

you forgot the other option

C David Icke

[Theos Dolophonos]

If you dont believe what would it take in science to prove to you that god is real?

Wow, now you got me. Problem is that even astronauts claim that when you first feel weightlessness you have a spiritual experience. But that is not to say they have been touched by god.

First of all, imagine that you were walking down a country lane on your own and then a bright shaft of light came down from the sky and a bearded fellow the size of a building stood before you and said 'I am GOD! You wanted proof? Well here it is. I am real and I exist and the bible was true, before it was passed down through the ages. Here is the true bible'. To which he hands you a book written in Hebrew or whatever language it was. With that he dissappears and you never see him again.
Imagine that ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Would you tell anyone? Would you show them the book? If you did, what do you think their reaction would be. I think someone would be sympathetic and think that you are completely insane and have found a book from some shoddy old library or even written it yourself and are completely bonkers.
The rather long point I'm trying to make is that A) You could be insane! And need medical help. B) You may have YOUR proof, but noone else will believe you. And I can't see anything in science proving to me that an all powerful 'personal god' exists.

What if he materialised in the middle of, e.g, the Olympic opening ceremony which just about everyone with a television will be watching? Not to mention the thousands of people in the stadium itself, who would be able to verify that it wasn't simply a huge special effect.

[M Paul Lloyd]

I would assume that some advanced technology had been used to make me think I was seeing something spectacular Theos.

Even if a being made of light purporting to be the 'almighty' where to show me the entire universe in an instant I would still find myself wondering, 'who is this guy?' I certainly would not accept that 'it' was a god, although he/she/it may well appear to be so.

The late Arthur C Clarke once said that 'any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic to anyone unfamiliar with it'.

[Shadowwolf]

That is why instead of a stadium appearance there would need to be things like creating an entire planet plus ecosystem, in close proximity to Terra without any impact to the planet or system at a snap of a finger; for the proof of omnipotence. Along with the ability to know everything about you, current thoughts etc and be able to tell you exactly what you are going to do for say the next week, and you despite the foreknowledge are helpless but to do what was told; the omniscience see. But omniscience and omnipotence are mutually exclusive anyhoo, so certain versions of the mighty one are not possible to begin with.

Then I might say hey, this appears to be an incredibly powerful being, perhaps even what they claim to be but I did not elect them as my master and don't see how creation bestows eternal ownership.

What would be a good step would be a strong airtight scientific explanation that points unambiguously to a greater power, an explanation that was testable and fit the world and evidence we find better than any of the current explanations which contravene the background stories or work perfectly well without anyone at the helm to start it all. That would be some feat given how well the current explanations actually account for the evidence to hand and the mountain of supporting data for them.

[Hyrulian Outlaw]

Some interesting thoughts there Focusites.

The whole god thing is something i've been pondering a lot recently. I just wonder "how" everything started and i think that we dont have the capacity to understand the idea that everything has always been. If thats the case anyway, perhaps I should go join a philosophy forum.

I certainly dont agree with any religion - I think there a type of control but obviousely I respect other peoples wishes to conform to those ideas. But still, I wonder "what if".

I think what shads has said would be convincing enough for me.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Mr.S has a deep and worthy understanding of the god dilemma Hyrulian; )

We did try philosophy on here in the dim and distant past but it tended to end up a bit circular, with both sides locked in a denial war that never seems to be resolved.

A bit like two black holes orbiting each other, spectacular but ultimately doomed.

[Liam Sheppard]

I always thought that 'nothing starts from nothing'

that was my justification for a higher force...

but science has probably extinguished that vain thought

[Shadowwolf]

I prefer to think of it as shining a light and illuminating those dark recesses where once simple and unsatisfying excuses held roost, as opposed to extinguishing, makes it sound all bad.

[M Paul Lloyd]

I see the realisation that god is an illusion more in the context of opening a door on a cold day, yes it can be a bit uncomfortable without that cosy shield to protect you as all the warmth whistled out and the chilly breeze of reality drifts in, but my goodness you can see so much more.

[Colm]

"nothing starts from nothing" is a self-defeating argument, because what did god start from? The response to this is "he has always been there". But if things can always have been there, then why can't the universe?

It would take a lot to prove god exists: in a twisted way this fact is ammuntion for religious people though. As they can roll their eyes and groan that if he's impossible to prove, what chance do they have? That it's unfair to ask them to prove if no amount of proof will be enough.

First they have to prove that there is an all-powerful being. Then that he's not just a really technologically advanced alien ( a character from star trek could easily do any of the tricks Jesus did). Also that he's real. Then that he can create the universe. Then that he did in fact create ours. And still have to prove he's the same guy as the one in the bible.

It would be easier to invent a brainwashing machine which can artificially erase doubt from our minds.

[MrIsaksson]

I 'love' how religious people look upon the world and say, "This is far too complex to have been created on its own" so they then jump to illogical step and come up with God. Not once do they realise that they have just moved their original objection from the natural world to God.

Fools I say

[Shadowwolf]

Reason means little alas.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Well it has a parallel in the idea that works of engineering from the ancient world, such as the great pyramids of Egypt, the Nazca lines and pictograms that can only bee seen from the air or even Stonehenge were beyond the ability of our ancestors and therefore 'aliens' must have done it.

[...]

QUOTE HYRULAIN OUTLAW The whole god thing is something i've been pondering a lot recently. I just wonder "how" everything started and i think that we dont have the capacity to understand the idea that everything has always been. If thats the case anyway, perhaps I should go join a philosophy forum.QUOTE

these are my feelings also. whether you believe or no the question "where did it all come from?" is a valid scientific question

[M Paul Lloyd]

Some say it was the big bang..... but I don't believe in that either.

[...]

we need to try and be a bit more constructive about this. the deep space pic from hubble proves that in the past galaxies were either more numerous or packed closer together

[M Paul Lloyd]

Um... do they @@?

I was under the impression that the rate of expansion during the period known as 'inflation' was so rapid that the age of the universe was still a mere 10-35 seconds (0.00000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds) old when it was some 90%+ of it present day size. Therefore no observable galaxies from a closely compacted universe can be observed no matter how far back we look because such galaxies still didn't exist back then.

Convenient that isn't it?

[...]

agreed mpl but that s still sidestepping the underlying question, where did it all come from?