BBC Focus Magazine

[nemisis39]

I've been reading through the reference section in particular the two topics on spaceship design and while its true that financial constraints and politics’ will no doubt play a big part in the human race's attempts to conquer the stars what is the way forward

As i see it, instead of the big powerful states like the USA, Russia, China, Europe and Asia all racing of on there own projects would it not be better to pool resources, scientifically i mean, as i cannot see the different political base's coming together ( to much distrust and old scars at the moment i fear) or would that not be possible due to individual governments funding research. Surely if knowledge was pooled then at least we would as a planet all be singing from the same hymn sheet as the goals are the same, to explore space ( we have the ISS which is a step in the right direction ). During discussions there are always thoughts of space stations moon base's etc platforms to build on.

What area's need high priority though, in my opinion

1 A new propulsion system or a more economical system at least. Ion drives have been mentioned before. Unfortunately i don’t know enough on the subject to comment but i’ve a feeling a few members will have

2 Size of the ship start off small and build from there you have to learn to stand before you can walk and walk before you can run. Technology isn't advanced enough at the moment to be looking at travelling through the cosmos at speeds the human body cannot withstand or ships for that matter.

3 Building materials again advancements in this area need to be made stronger hulls force fields or some sort of shielding that is more effective. We don’t want squished crews

4 Living quarters and interior of the ship command area, scientific experimental area's, area's to sleep/relax all of this depends on the size of the ship of course.

5 Crew its size and composition

And a whole host of other areas that I haven’t touched on

[The Beige Avenger]

For sure it's political... but it's also geographical and perhaps cultural. It will take everyone pooling together to make this a reality, it's happening slowly. Now that the 'space race' is over there is no more petty competition and only science and engineering; scientists don't tend to care too much about politiks (sic! )

New propulsion is needed for sure. You don't want to rely on such a bulky fuel source!

But... there is no velocity we couldn't travel at. It's acceleration we need to be worried about but at the same time, not worried about. If we acelerated at 1 g for instance (what we all experience) we'd get up to phenominal speeds in no time! For every piece of time you accelerate, you square that and multiply it by 10 m/s/s to get the velocity so even after 1 minute that's 36,000 m/s!!

[Nike2020]

On James May Space travel programme he pointed out that the space suit itself was its own space ship, together with advances in robotics there is talk of developing new technological bio-suits that could work in space.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Splendid, splendid, keep it up people.

[worldmaker]

I'm up-dating my Reference Section design a little - to add an enhanced magnetic shield effect for crew protection.

Should have the appendix ready to go this week.

As for economics. I'm trying to raise a few thousand to attend an aerospace conference and present my ideas to prospective backers. But I'm also looking for a skilled 3D graphics designer and or a few model-makers to help put some substance on the SpringShip design and enhance the sales package.

I've spent the last ten years on the financial aspect of all this. It can be done, but needs a large block of seed capital to launch the venture - about 1% of the money thrown away by the government on their friends in the banks.

My plan will be entirely privately funded, leaner, faster and cleaner than any bureaucrat project.

[nemisis39]

Speeding up is fine its keeping the speed to a safe limit that’s the hard bit all those micro dust partials etc travelling with you r at a faster speed and hitting you is a big problem hence the need for a suitable deflector or force field of some kind also as you stated

If we accelerated at 1 g for instance (what we all experience) we'd get up to phenomenal speeds in no time! For every piece of time you accelerate, you square that and multiply it by 10 m/s/s to get the velocity so even after 1 minute that's 36,000 m/s!!

That’s fine but a brick wall hitting you at 30 mph you may survive, but a wall hitting you at a 100mph would make a lot more damage or would it. I remember stating something similar in a post in the old forum (before the big wipe ) to which Jamie (i think it was ) pointed out that i might have stumbled across something inadvertently which i can't remember exactly what it was though . Also as you speed up experientially wouldn't you have to do the same process for slowing down the same brick wall scenario applies i would imagine.

I shouldn't think that we would have a very big problem with getting the speed up or maintaining the speed, its being safe travelling at that speed or faster is the big problem as i see it hence the need (as stated ) a deflector of some sort.

There is also the problem of muscle wastage i remember seeing somewhere that in order for a human being not to loose any muscle strength while in space they have to do a minimum of 2 hrs exercise per day so some sort of artificial gravity would also be needed to compensate for this effect.

As for a spacesuit being its own ship that i didn't know, nice thought though would make any repairs a lot easier if that had to be done in space. i don’t think it would be a good idea for zipping round the solar system though. i can see it now lots of little men in space suits zipping round all over the place Maybe it would b good as a piece of survival equipment though

[conduit]

For sure it's political... but it's also geographical and perhaps cultural. It will take everyone pooling together to make this a reality, it's happening slowly. Now that the 'space race' is over there is no more petty competition and only science and engineering; scientists don't tend to care too much about politiks

surely the work of scientists is still bound by their respective governments? ie, funding, which will always be the main ihibiting factor for scientific advancement. And what with the current financial crisis I imagine the problem of funding is worse at the moment.

Also I don't believe the "space race" is really over, after reading the issue of Focus a while ago that talked about the new space race to mars. It definitely surprised me to learn about China and Russia using spies in order to gain information on the US moon landings for their own own landings. I mean you'd think that after the US got back from the moon they would at least have shared information regarding their findings, the makeup of the lunar surface, and other scientific data. I'm not talking about sharing information regarding their spaceship technology, but basic information regarding the actual moon itself. But it seems the US kept a lot of info to themselves, and other nations pretty much had to do all their own research and information gathering from scratch.

In any case I still think competition will continue to play a big part in space travel for a long time to come, whether this will be a hindrance or a catalyst for further progress who knows?

[Shadowwolf]

I don't see any unity and pooling for quite some time, not unless there is some global threat to encourage a bit of co-operation.

It is going to remain in government and private hands who will all be out for their own ends and making their own mistakes in the process.

[MattW]

My plan will be entirely privately funded, leaner, faster and cleaner than any bureaucrat project.

Hmm, a bit like our privately funded rail system, compared with the federal Swiss system? Privately funded projects aren't ALWAYS better.

[M Paul Lloyd]

A privately funded project also needs a decent profit margin otherwise you will never get anyone to invest in it.

Of course you could do the 'When Worlds Collide' trick and get some fabulously wealthy individual to fund the project on the premise that he can come along too..... and then leave him behind at the last minute.

However I can't really see even a group of the most wealthy having the resources to put a decent spaceship together.

Project Orion is what I would call a 'decent' spaceship.

http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... nProj.html

[nemisis39]

Interesting site that MPL the 2 quotes below made me think

1

Overshadowed by the Moon race, Orion was forgotten by almost everybody except Dyson and Taylor.1 Dyson reflected that "this is the first time in modern history that a major expansion of human technology has been suppressed for political reasons." In 1968 he wrote a paper2 about nuclear pulse drives and even large starships that might be propelled in this way. But ultimately, the radiation hazard associated with the early ground-launch idea led him to become disillusioned with the idea. Even so, he argued that the most extensive flight program envisaged by Taylor and himself would have added no more than 1% to the atmospheric contamination then (c. 1960) being created by the weapons-testing of the major powers.

2

Being based on fission fuel, the Orion concept is inherently "dirty" and probably no longer socially acceptable even if used only well away from planetary environments. A much better basis for a nuclear-pulse rocket is nuclear fusion – a possibility first explored in detail by the British Interplanetary Society in the Daedalus project

If we were to have a base on the moon or in orbit above the earth, could we not use this technology to launch from there. Also with the advancement in nuclear fuels and the containment, shielding etc, would it be possible now to be able to go forward in this area

[M Paul Lloyd]

In a word Nemesis? Yes, we could most certainly use this technology to launch from the Moon, sadly such things are currently banned under some absurd nuclear weapons treaty or other!!

[Shadowwolf]

Pity, think it is probably in need of some amending but given how entwined such a thing would be with world politics and power; well it is unlikely to happen any time soon.

[nemisis39]

I would imagine that all possible avenue's of technology are being explored in this area, i.e. propulsion and as our level of tech at the moment is limited somewhat, maybe they have hit a wall and are confused as to what direction to go in, i think ill write a letter to NASA give them a nudge

Either way like its been said, there are a lot of countries that are now exploring the space programme that were not before, so the more input given the better the chances of improvement . As for the space race being over I think that a whole new one is about to start of between certain countries , hopefully this time it won’t be put on a political agenda and some really important advancements can be made .

One of them having a more permanent base off planet for us to build on whether it be in orbit or on the moon.

[Shadowwolf]

Alas so far it looks very political or national in nature and whilst it is good that others are getting into space exploration; the efforts are so far engaged in developing technology that already exists, nothing new yet.

[M Paul Lloyd]

I would like to think that once we do actually get into space their will be a period when, the early pioneers at least, will come to realise that simply being there is challenging enough without having to resort to silly politics, feuding and infighting.

I base this to some extent on the way in which Antarctic explorers operate given that the conditions down there are so very extreme that survival itself, despite all the technology going, is a daily battle all of its own and this I think is what will challenge us in space and help keep us focussed.

Of course it would only be a matter of time before some ingrate or other decided that taking was easier than making.

[worldmaker]

My plan will be entirely privately funded, leaner, faster and cleaner than any bureaucrat project.

Hmm, a bit like our privately funded rail system, compared with the federal Swiss system?

No.

[worldmaker]

A privately funded project also needs a decent profit margin otherwise you will never get anyone to invest in it.

Of course you could do the 'When Worlds Collide' trick and get some fabulously wealthy individual to fund the project on the premise that he can come along too..... and then leave him behind at the last minute.

However I can't really see even a group of the most wealthy having the resources to put a decent spaceship together.

Project Orion is what I would call a 'decent' spaceship.

http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... nProj.html

Well I prefer my SpringShip as a decent design.

And my business planning will have to remain confidential until I've secured that critical seed funding from a handful of wealthy visionaries, but I won't be leaving anyone behind when this takes off.

[Colm]

Speeding up is fine its keeping the speed to a safe limit that’s the hard bit all those micro dust partials etc travelling with you r at a faster speed and hitting you is a big problem hence the need for a suitable deflector or force field of some kind also as you stated

Does speed even matter in space? (From that point of view)

This is just hypothetical by me but,

All velocity is relative anyway. The only reason we are sitting still is that actually we are all moving at the same speed because we are bound to a single object - the Earth. And that, like the other planets is abound to the Sun.

But once in space, especially extra-orbital space, any other objects out there are not bound to the Earth, so really these deadly dust particles could be moving at almost any speed imaginable up to a decent fraction of the speed of light, relative to us, even if we were standing still (relative to the Earth). The Earth itself is moving at over 100,000 km/h already (relative to the Sun). So particles of dust hitting the Earth (and therefore any orbital spacecraft) which is orbiting the Sun in the opposite direction must be colliding at double that.

So from what I can see, it doesn't matter whether we speed up or have a safe limit, we're going to be hit by super-fast particles anyway, as soon as we leave orbit.

(BTW, are there particles orbiting in the opposite direction? Ones that have been captured by the Sun's gravity?)

[Shadowwolf]

My plan will be entirely privately funded, leaner, faster and cleaner than any bureaucrat project.

Hmm, a bit like our privately funded rail system, compared with the federal Swiss system?

No.

Well so far all the strides forward in space have been a result of the government funded programs such as NASA, ESA and all the other national endeavours. They put satellites in orbit, men in orbit, men walking in space, men on the moon, probes on or in orbit of a number of planets and even beyond the outer reaches of the system. These activities has had more impact in space development than the private, which is only now getting into short hop orbit trips so long as they can make money from it. Needless to say Matt's point that private does not equate to efficient, faster or cleaner still stands.

Having looked at the springship, well it does not fit the current private models of relatively short, rocket assisted flights into near orbit and back again or satellite launching. Additionally it does not utilise current and well known rocket and aerodynamic technology, hence it will cost dramatically more in design and engineering from the ground up. Given that it appears to be a vessel that could only be constructed in orbit only drives up both cost and build time — I'm thinking decades here seen as there are no privately ran astronauts or space construction companies, it also pushes any return on investment much further away whilst setting a high ticket price for whatever it will eventually provide. Of course to have the level of safety that civilians demand, would also necessitate the existence of some form of deep space search and rescue should any accident occur. It appears to be either something that only the national agencies could mount or a private enterprise that is many years away yet.