BBC Focus Magazine

[Croatguy]

Shouldnt Star Wars be classified more as a fantasy then Sci-fi? The only Sci-fi part about it is its set in space, ships that use hyper-drive and a couple of holograms, thats about it. There is not really any science in it. Its just like Lord of The Rings, but set in space. Anyone else agree?

[M Paul Lloyd]

Oh this is a difficult one, where to draw the line between science fiction and fantasy?

However I do recall a lot of space craft, light Sabre's, ray guns, anti gravity devices, alien worlds and such in Star Wars but personally I prefer to see them all as part of one great big science fantasy fiction genre.

Take James Bond films for example, plenty of science and tech' in there and much of it pure fiction, well at least at the time anyway, but they are seen as spy adventure films which I find rather odd and then you have Terry Pratchett's other reality idea where everything exists in an alternative universe, and that is very much the point from which I take my queue.

Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, The Crow, Harry Potter? all very diverse but all equally unreal and all part of an imaginary existence that definitely would not happen in our world. And you have to remember that a lot of Sci-Fi is used merely as a way of telling a story in a way that circumvents our current social morays, a 'cover' as it were for subjects we would rather not face up to directly.

[Croatguy]

I tend to classify sci-fi films as ones where Earth is included and also the possibility of the science fiction in the movie becoming science fact in the future. Light sabres are just pure fantasy. Ray guns and anti-gravity devices I did forget to mention from the movie so I can say they can be classified as sci-fi, but the rest of the movie is just fantasy. A lot of fantasy films have alien worlds so I wouldnt classify a movie with a total alien world as sci-fi, unless the alien world is one of the planets in the Milky Way Galaxy.

Terry Pratchetts movies you are right should not be classifed as sci-fi. There should be a classification for them under 'alternative reality'. Similar films like this I have seen (I cant recall their titles) are ones with hypothetical plots..eg Nazis having won the war and the whole world living under fascism, and also the black race in America being the dominate race and the whites being the slaves.

So yeah, I agree M Paul. There should be seperate categories for science fantasy and alternative reality.

[Shadowwolf]

It really all depends on how you wish to define the terms, broad or narrow. I tend towards broad to mean that fantasy always involved magic, swords and sorcery frequently in ye olde castle and knights type of setting. Whilst sci-fi on the other hand involves advanced tech, space and ships whether Terra is a feature or not. If you narrow it down then all sorts of sub-genres begin to pop up and folks will have differing opinions on what goes where and all opinions largely no more more accurate than the next persons. The W40K verse is sci-fi but a very dark, war torn gothic version of the far future that is in many respects backwards to our present.

Broadly speaking Star Wars is more sci-fi to me, that is where it would be if I arranged my collection based on sci-fi vs fantsay, it has space craft, laser weaponry, anti-grav drives and a galaxy of planets, it has technology even if most of it will never be.

Plus classifications for this kind of thing are largely a personal construct, even if many others agree with the breakdown it does not exactly have any weight of authority upon it. People can categorise how they wish, that's about all there is to it.

[Colm]

I would tend to agree with Shadowwolf kind of, on the point that... you need to know why you're classifying it... Do you own a video shop with a Sci-Fi section? I do remember having an argument before about whether Third Rock From The Sun was Sci-Fi (I said it wasn't), but that's a completely different story... There it was for the purposes of whether people interested in Sci-Fi would be bothered with it. I would think that people into Sci-Fi would be into Star Wars, though.

But if I was to classify it, I would tend to the side of Fantasy In Space! It has magic, good-vs-evil, folks rising from nothingness to super-herodom, and is - as Croatguy points out - set in a fictional place. (though this wouldn't really count in my estimation)
But there is nothing that kind of asks, "What if it were possible to... " which I would think is one of the points of Sci-Fi...

But it does have many of the Sci-Fi elements... Spaceships, lasers, aliens, etc. And one could argue it does ask "What if there was a special Force which could be channeled by specially talented people"... But the fact that that force is affected by Good vs Evil is what pushes it towards Fantasy rather than Sci-Fi for me...

[Croatguy]

Well because there is no 'Fantasy' category in all the Blockbusters I have visited (Fantasy films such as Lord of Rings and Willow tend to be classified under 'Adventure'), Star Wars would have no choice but to be classified under Sci-Fi. So in a very broad sense, Star Wars can be considered Sci-Fi, but under the surface its just a Fantasy movie with Sci-fi elements. Until Blockbuster or other DVD librarys implement more specific cateogories, then I guess Star Wars will always be a Sc-Fi for the general masses until other Space Fantasies justify a worthy category on merit (besides that horrible Ewok movie

[Shadowwolf]

There is not really any science in it.

Actually that's not quite true, there is the prodigious and varied usage of robotics for example.

[M Paul Lloyd]

not to mention the numerous anti-grav' devices, interstellar space flight, cloning, and the currently impossible light sabres.

[Croatguy]

Some fair arguments there, but Im pretty confident there is more fantasy stuff then science stuff.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Where would you draw the line though?

Is Forbidden Planet sci-fi or fantasy? After all the plot is based entirely on a Shakespearian fantasy 'The Tempest' that involves magic and self delusion as major plot themes but it is billed as pure Sci-fi because it has space ships, ray guns and most importantly a robot. Then you could ask the same of 'Dragon Wars', is that fantasy? Or part of some alternative reality in which dragons really exist, a dimension only made possible through the genre of Sci-fi.

Complicated stuff if you ask me.

[Shadowwolf]

That's why I think it is largely a personal thing that changes with the person, not like there is a law of sci-fi that a movie can be scientifically measured against.

[...]

the lines do get very blurred, take "the trueman show" a brilliant piece of science fiction that is refered to as comedy drama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truman_Show

[Colm]

Indeed if you look at many "fantasy" RPGs, the magic element is very strictly defined, and mages are often regarded as the scientists of the day - they do a lot of study and experiments- which makes it seem more like science than magic... So D&D could be nearly regarded as Sci-Fi with swash-buckling...

[M Paul Lloyd]

It's like the late Arthur C Clarke once said, 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic' .

[theblazeuk]

I think of it in terms of DC comics and their old definition of Magic and Science based powers.

Magic - fantasy - was where the predominant means of manipulating energy was through some kind of metaphysical relationship - drawn from outside the self rather than created via a chemical or biological reaction.

Science is where a (loosely loosely defined) system of universal laws are followed and some sort of logic can be assumed, even if its only of the fuzziest relationship to reality.

So...the Force is magic but since the setting is primarily defined by things like electricity, mechanical devices, etc it's Science Fiction.

If they'd sailed interstellar pirate ships then it would be fantasy. Instead they had hyperdrive engines and rusting ships. Definitely more like "sci fi fantasy" though

[Colm]

there is the prodigious and varied usage of robotics for example

More like the fantastic use of robotics!

BTW I would think that if you're going to be strict about it, nearly all Sci-Fi... Or even most Fiction - is Fantasy!

[M Paul Lloyd]

I'll cheerfully second that Colm, indeed I seem to recall that the works of H.G. Wells were referred to as 'Romantic Fiction' in his day.

[The Beige Avenger]

You guys are all mistaken... It's a philosophical debate topic.


Did Greedo shoot first?

[M Paul Lloyd]

Greedo didn't stand a chance, Solo shot him under the table before he could pull the trigger.

[Shadowwolf]

Did Greedo shoot first?

HERETIC!