BBC Focus Magazine

[Lateralman]

Mr Wolf, my answer to your initial question about machine evidence is that as you are no doubt aware we are currently in the process of creating it now, with advanced robotics, artificial life and experiments of copying the human brain.

Robots will overtake our mental capacity. The first law of robotics will be applied. “Not to take a human life,” no matter how dumb they think we are. We are still their parents, their creators. How many children want to harm their family?

The only way that this can be revised is if man wages war on man and alters the first law. This is a possibility that is well documentated. From my perspective, I take a more passive stance that could still give rise to our eventual undoing even with the first law in place.

Our current tentative forays out into space with our probes and rovers rolling around mars are up and running. What do you imagine them to be like in only few decades from now?

All the current information we have on worlds that we know of reveals them lifeless. We have even travelled to the moon and have peeked under rocks.

There is no ET because we have already killed him. The evidence being our observations of countless dead planets. Unless of course someone has him hidden in an experimental lab in the desert or in a dark bedroom cupboard somewhere.

Admittedly, I have no way of knowing and much of what I refer to is fiction but a good portion of that fiction founded on current observable fact.

If in this instance I made up an amateur Sci Fi story to string this thought together that you feel is not relevant to this site then, please explain to me how films about flying saucers manage to qualify debate in the Sci Fi section or is it all just trivia?

For if it is, some of that trivia is having a profound influence on our current expectations and present preparations for what we imagine to be out there in the void.

[Shadowwolf]

Mr Wolf, my answer to your initial question about machine evidence is [...] What do you imagine them to be like in only few decades from now?

Ahh but I did not ask that question. I wanted to know how you created what I consider a transparent excuse seemingly without noticing you were doing so.

Look at your story, you created the idea of an ancient human race which builds an incredibly advanced probe robot army to explore the verse, an army that interprets its instructions as kill everything it finds - everything also being surprisingly unable to counter this threat - and this it does before they then decide to become caretaker masters of their human creators. Which for some reason results in them returning us to a pre-hunter gatherer society. One would reasonably expect evidence from all of this, evidence of ancient humans, evidence of robotic masters etc, evidence which does not exist and is thus a bit of a problem for the whole notion. So what do you then do in the face of this evidence problem? Why you get out the intellectual polyfiller to cover the hole by claiming that the robots conveniently removed all trace of evidence along with their presence so that no one can ever know what actually happened. Furthermore you claim that were humans to somehow manage to discover the truth despite all the evidence being removed, then the robots will instantly wipe the entire verse including us, build a new one and start again; something they will keep doing until humans stop discovering the truth. Of course why these creator robots don't put the exterminated aliens back is a bit puzzling but that's an aside.

So again, what I'd love to know is how you saw the hole in your story, then created the 'robots removed all evidence' excuse and didn't notice the self serving fabrication you erected to protect the initial story? It's almost as if you were anticipating the request for evidence and thought you'd pre-emptively shoot it down by conveniently removing it all, thus absolving yourself of having to provide a reason to come with all of this in the first place.

All the current information we have on worlds that we know of reveals them lifeless. [...] The evidence being our observations of countless dead planets

You should pay heed to your own words, in this context 'current information' are very important words, we don't actually know enough to say lifeless definitively. Some we know that life like us could not live there but others we are not so certain. We certainly cannot say 'dead' as though they have been scoured of life.

Admittedly, I have no way of knowing and much of what I refer to is fiction but a good portion of that fiction founded on current observable fact.

Yes and the countries, political entities and cities in a Tom Clancy novel are real but yet the story is not.

If in this instance I made up an amateur Sci Fi story to string this thought together that you feel is not relevant to this site then, please explain to me how films about flying saucers manage to qualify debate in the Sci Fi section or is it all just trivia?

Most film mentions are as to whether it is worth seeing or if certain elements have some degree of plausibility. There are no other entries which are works of fiction either here or in the Reference Section, and you'll note that I was none too enthused with the relevance of the thread on powerful fantasy beings. We once prior to the Big Wipe had a free form sci-fi fiction but that too ended as it wasn't really relevant. Everything else at least pays some heed to scientific reality, alas, your's does not, you made it up and then made up excuses to paper over the large cracks. There is also no debate or rather nothing to debate, by virtue of your evidenceless creation we have something we can never know and hence will never affect us, something indistinguishable from a universe in which your robots do not exist. Therefore we may as well assume they don't and forget about it.
It is, however, still there but we don't need two further helpings of amateur fiction expounding further on an already false premise. Even were you or anyone else to create a hard science work of fiction it would not belong here as this is not a writers forum or outlet for amateur fictional work.

Hence the suggestion of a blog if you simply want to post fiction, otherwise leave out the fiction and just post the details of whatever it is your trying to get across. However, like I said, your We Killed ET notion is DOA, thus it needs no additional contributions or parts.

[Lateralman]

That is it!

You where first choice to play the lead role in this but now I am writing you out of the script.

Mr Lloyd with his new avatar is the new contender for the leading machine part with the rest of the guys on the site as extras.

And another thing, riddle me this! There is no part 2 or part 3 how could there be part 1 is permanently on loop with all past evidence permanently erased by super intelligent machines that have had millions of years to sort the problem out.

And one more thing, why would our ‘friendly machine army’ recreate aliens if they know they would present a threat to man or any life on Earth! They got rid of all the threats the very first time around. That is why there is no ET!

Polyfilla indeed.

[Shadowwolf]

why would our ‘friendly machine army’ recreate aliens if they know they would present a threat

Robots that can exterminate all life whilst being also able to destroy then recreate the verse at whim mean that ET does not present a threat thus could be put back. However, I'm really not interested on arguing the details given that the whole thing is irrelevant.

There is no part 2 or part 3...

Well just a few posts back you were speaking of a parts two and three, hence my response on such.

Well I guess that you are stuck with me until I complete parts two and three.

I wanted to know how you created what I consider a transparent excuse seemingly without noticing you were doing so.

I guess then that you cannot answer this and have not realised what you've done, perhaps cannot realise, anyhoo that's that I guess.

[Lateralman]

Actually I thought talking about aliens, (are they there or they not there) would make a very good topic for the site. That is about it really. I do remember that we touched upon this subject a while ago.

You are a man of reason, do you believe in flying saucers? Little green men? As opposed to what I am telling you, which make perfect sense? Without the need to include, past or future time travel. That this may be the predicted future for us. A future that you can witness unfolding, right now.

Do you believe in ET?

If you do, doesn’t this strike you as being rather odd? Believing in something that shows no sign of existence? It almost prehistorically spiritual, that kind of belief. Why do men of reason believe this? What has embedded this belief into their minds?

Alternatively, if you do not believe in ET, what do you think is out there? Anything, nothing? If you think, there is nothing, why? (Do you agree with me?) If you think, there is anything, why? (Do you believe in ET?)

If you think, there is nothing or you think there is something what is there? Can you make something out of nothing?

On the other hand, is the answer that you just do not know? Moreover, if that is the get out of jail card then you cannot fully disagree with me. Can you.

I am only joking Mr Wolf but the whole premise is a little strange that educated men could actually be preparing for an alien encounter. When you stop and think about.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Do you believe in ET?
If you do, doesn’t this strike you as being rather odd? Believing in something that shows no sign of existence?

Yes but as I tried to explain before.

I think the apparent lack of alien species is down to the fact that the further we look into space the deeper we stray into the past and thus are not seeing the universe as it is today. So given that our galaxy alone is some 100,000 light years in diameter and we are pretty much on the edge, well that leaves the possibility of many a post industrial species plenty of time to venture into space undetected. They are most likely out there we just haven't seen them yet. and they won't have seen us either.

So just because we cannot see any evidence of ET does not mean they are not out there. However the lack of evidence of somethings existence must be the over-riding factor otherwise we have to assume that other such unprovable entities might exist. And I'm sorry but I don't do religion.

[Shadowwolf]

You are a man of reason, do you believe in flying saucers? [...] A future that you can witness unfolding, right now.

I do wonder why it is that you expect I would answer your queries yet you steadfastly dance around ever dealing with that niggling issue I keep putting to you?

Anyhoo moving along, I do not put any credence in the alleged existence of alien space craft - aka flying saucers - here on or near Terra, because there is simply no credible evidence to buttress these claims.

Now what you are claiming in We Killed ET does not make perfect sense, it is an unsubstantiated assertion based purely on the current state of no contact, it is complete fabrication. Worse is that it also contains elements which make it unfalsifiable and thus both meaningless and worthless. It no more predicts a future than it explains a past, it is a story, nothing more.

Do you believe in ET?

Whilst I fear that you will greatly misunderstand any answer I give I will try and explain my position. Do I think there is good reason to think that ET actually exists? Not really*, however, I do find that both possibility and probability make the existence of life including intelligences at many points of development very likely. Terra and all the life on it exists, life does happen rather self evidently. Dismissing the deity driven creator tales as empty stories that explain nothing, we are left with life arising through natural processes. Life happened in this system. Just sticking to the Milky Way we find billions of stars and systems with an even greater number of planets with the exact same materials we find in our system. That's a lot of chances for the same life creating event or similar to happen in the galaxy. It would be more unusual - though not impossible - for this natural life creating event to only have happened once here on Terra. The numbers are so vast that it makes the probability of ET so high as to be almost - though not quite - guaranteed. Thus I find that given the vastness of the galaxy the probability of alien life is significant if not yet guaranteed / directly known. So no I would find nothing odd in taking this position and that's why other folks think similarly.

Note, there is nothing in the probability of ET existing that stipulates we should have direct evidence of this existence, ET's existence does not mean we should have contact. It is only in your mind that were ET to exist then it should be stood before you conversing with you. It is because of this unwarranted, unreasoned assertion of yours that you end up having to invent reasons for their absence. If you simply stopped imposing these a priori demands on reality you would find everything a lot easier to comprehend.

On the other hand, is the answer that you just do not know? Moreover, if that is the get out of jail card then you cannot fully disagree with me. Can you.

Well it was not, however, acknowledging that you do not know something is not a get out of jail free card, it is a statement of current knowledge. Your consistent mistake is in assuming that any gap in current knowledge means you can make up whatever takes your fancy and call it a worthy explanation merely because you assert it to do so. That any explanation you proffer has genuine merit based solely on this gap. However, that's not how it works and thus I or anyone else can easily disagree or dismiss claims that make no sense, are scientifically / logically impossible or meaningless stories that can never be known.

I am only joking Mr Wolf but the whole premise is a little strange that educated men could actually be preparing for an alien encounter. When you stop and think about.

If you actually did stop and think about it sans all your false assumptions about science and scientific knowledge then you would not be so puzzled.


* - There was the "Wow Signal" of unexplained origin that did look as though it was the product of non-natural means. However, alone and unrepeated it is not sufficient evidence to say that it was the product of some distant alien intelligence.

[Lateralman]

Wow! I have to think a little about both of your posts.

Fourteen billion years is a hell of a long time for the rise of any possible given advanced civilisation that may or may not be out there. That is not taking into account the possibility that we may have our numbers wrong because our universe may have and still is experiencing endless big bangs on a continuous basis. This throws another spanner in the works.

I am still suffering from the stress of being one of the legion of the banned. Will get back to you both.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Well now I accept that the age of our galaxy, the 'milky way' is difficult to pin down but to assume that it has been in any state to support life of any kind for 14 billion years is stretching credulity to its very limits.

I would like to suggest that the first life to form in our galaxy may not have occurred until much more recently and thus the apparent window of opportunity would be much narrower. Indeed we could be the most advanced species to have evolved thus far, in which case your destruction of ET has yet to take place and we are the progenitors of your prophecy. Or not, depending on how you view it all ?

Oh and trust me, you have no idea what it feels like to be classed as Admin' and still find yourself banned.

I am still suffering from the stress of being one of the legion of the banned. Will get back to you both.

So suck it it up and move on.

[Lateralman]

Okay chaps, you will have to forgive my late answer to the above as I am bouncing between the two of you.

When you refer to finding, a species as advanced as us out in the verse it depends what you mean by advanced. It is the word life, in any form, that sums it all up for me. It need not be intelligent.

Life! Where is it? So far, we have seen no evidence of ET. No evidence of anything. Not even a blade of grass on any of the huge planets we are currently space probing. Nothing, zero, zilch.

Look at what surrounds you. The abundance of life on earth and so far nothing beyond our own planet.

Doesn’t that strike you as being very odd?

My intellectual imaginary polyfiller is based on some current facts.

1. Our robots are already exploring the universe and will continue to do so.
2. They are becoming more advanced.
3. Their intelligence will ultimately supersede us.
4. We will instruct them not to harm us.
5. In order to protect us they may make the logical decision to kill all life beyond this planet.
6. We may try to change the programming of our space-exploring chums but in order to protect us they may make the rational evaluation to overrule us and carry on killing. Do not forget this killing may include anything right down to the smallest microbe if they consider it harmful to our species.
7. When the killing is over (this may have taken thousands of years) they may return home to their masters.
8. We may be gone.
9. What do they do with all that accumulated information! Information that they have been programmed to give to us.
10. LIFE BEGINS. THE CIRCLE BEGINS.

Points one, two and three are fact, after that the rest is common sense and a bit of creative license.

Bear in mind that none of this involves harming a human. For the machines are our creations. Our mechanical family and they love us. Even if they are vastly superior to us. At some point, they might want to be like us or any form of life on earth.

Ask yourselves this question, why has not any other life form that has occupied this planet for not thousands of years but millions has never had the ability to evolve intelligence like ourselves?

The removed all evidence excuse, as you put it is not quite an excuse for thus far we can see no evidence of any life beyond earth and have had no contact. This is a fact so far. Unless that you really think that the ‘Wow’ signal is real solid evidence.

In that case believing in aliens of any kind is also a fallacy. However, many do, otherwise we would have no Sci Fi industry. Not to mention the likes of NASA and SETI dreaming up and making plans for sudden alien contact. Moreover, how we would go about coping with it! If these established organisations are doing this now, does this make their efforts a total meaningless waste of time?

In fact, the ‘Wow’ signal may have been a signal from our own machines sent to us when they ended all contact in the past.

It is a story but it is a story with a plausible twist. The first half is a reality that we are living through now. The second a prediction based on that reality and the observable information we already have.

You cannot contradict yourself on not believing in the existence of space ships and alien life but then on the other hand say, "Finding intelligent life in the verse is very likely."

It is similar to the contrast of believing in the “Planck Scale” of a very small early universe and yet not believing in a universe or planets that keep on going up in scale to the infinitely big because the laws of physics tell you that it is impossible.

If you do believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere then why would it not be possible for our technology to have already wiped it out?

As I pointed out earlier there is no time travel involved here only an ongoing process of life evolving repeatedly. This is another fact that we witness on a daily basis.

Life may have been out there at some point in time and now it is gone and I think that we got rid of it by accident for our own self-preservation. This is only a supposition.

We already have it embedded in our minds that we must destroy any alien life should it invade us. Therefore, it is not only in my mind that we would tread upon it should it reveal itself.

If I have invented this reason for ET’s absence then you cannot rule out that it is not plausible, if you both think that finding life on any other world might be plausible.

It can only be ruled out by discovering life on another world.

For my part, I think that we are going to be very disappointed and that we are truly alone. Because of our own past technological undoing.

I told the both of you awhile back that this was driving me nuts!

[Shadowwolf]

Okay chaps, you will have to forgive my late answer to the above as I am bouncing between the two of you.

I may have were it not so blindingly daft, this is so wrong it's practically beyond belief.

When you refer to finding, a species as advanced as us out in the verse it depends what you mean by advanced. It is the word life, in any form, that sums it all up for me. It need not be intelligent.

I think I was pretty unambiguous with what I meant but despite this clarity you still insist on twisting everything into some deep mystery. When I refer to life at our level I refer to a roughly comparable intelligence, I am not speaking about single celled organisms, something I'd have thought was abundantly clear! But you go right ahead and respond to those strawmen you like building.

Life! Where is it? So far, we have seen no evidence of ET. No evidence of anything. Not even a blade of grass on any of the huge planets we are currently space probing. Nothing, zero, zilch.

Good lords this sails close to insane. Has it escaped your notice that our knowledge of other planets extends to little more than the knowledge that they are there? That we have next to no idea what their surface is like, that we have no idea whether they have grass or anything else upon them? Quite why you expect that knowledge of their existence also means knowing every last detail about them is beyond me. Once again you are a victim of your own unrealistic demands and when those demands are not met we get the produce of your unfettered imagination.

Look at what surrounds you. The abundance of life on earth and so far nothing beyond our own planet.

Doesn’t that strike you as being very odd?

No, because we know beggar all about our own system never mind what lies beyond.

My intellectual imaginary polyfiller is based on some current facts.

Oh but we are about to see that it is mostly not, hells you even admit as much.

1) Our probes are barely leaving our own system, technically exploring the wider verse but realistically not even scratching the surface of the system let alone anything else.

2) As things tend to do, nothing astounding in this.

3) - 9) Fantasy and noting but. If you are going to say that your notions are based on some current facts then do not almost immediately descend into pure fiction divorced from fact.

10) Thought terminating cliche or in simpler terms, BS.

Points one, two and three are fact, after that the rest is common sense and a bit of creative license.

Common sense?! Not at all, it's nothing but creative license.

Bear in mind that none of this involves harming [...] want to be like us or any form of life on earth.

More BS.

Ask yourselves this question, why has not any other life form that has occupied this planet for not thousands of years but millions has never had the ability to evolve intelligence like ourselves?

Oh dear, for some reason it's just not good enough that we humans managed to appear, now we must have others or else there is some terrible problem

The removed all evidence excuse, as you put it is not quite an excuse for thus far we can see no evidence of any life beyond earth and have had no contact. This is a fact so far. Unless that you really think that the ‘Wow’ signal is real solid evidence.

It is an excuse, one you resolutely ignore as is your wont when faced with anything that bursts the bubbles you create. And oh dear lords you're now abusing the Wow Signal even though you don't know the first thing about it. Which btw I was damn clear on, you've no excuse for being puzzled on how I rate it, "There was the "Wow Signal" of unexplained origin that did look as though it was the product of non-natural means. However, alone and unrepeated it is not sufficient evidence to say that it was the product of some distant alien intelligence." How plainer do I have to put it? Dear lords are you even reading what I type or merely flying off at imaginary arguments?

In that case believing in aliens of any kind is also a fallacy. However, many do, otherwise we would have no Sci Fi industry. Not to mention the likes of NASA and SETI dreaming up and making plans for sudden alien contact.

Seriously, are you being deliberately obtuse at this point? The sci-fi industry has nothing to with reality, IT'S FICTION. Meanwhile NASA and SETI for their part are laying bare contingency plans for the event of contact as opposed to trying to invent plans as events happen. You know, like NASA does towards dealing with potential impacts via asteroids instead of waiting until they know one is going to hit.

In fact, the ‘Wow’ signal may have been a signal from our own machines sent to us when they ended all contact in the past.

It is a story but it is a story with a plausible twist. The first half is a reality that we are living through now. The second a prediction based on that reality and the observable information we already have.

Nope, not in the slightest, your special pleading does not equate to plausible. As for the Wow, you know what might make it a signal from our own machines? Evidence. Sans evidence, then it has nothing to do with us.

You cannot contradict yourself on not believing in the existence of space ships and alien life but then on the other hand say, "Finding intelligent life in the verse is very likely."

THAT'S NOT A CONTRADICTION AND I WAS QUITE CLEAR, I'LL BE DAMNED IF I EXPLAIN SIMPLE ENGLISH ANY FURTHER AS YOU CLEARLY APPEAR INCAPABLE OF GETTING IT!

It is similar to the contrast of believing in the “Planck Scale” of a very small early universe and yet not believing in a universe or planets that keep on going up in scale to the infinitely big because the laws of physics tell you that it is impossible.

Oh frack me, the giant planet thing again...

That's not a contrast, physics allows for the very small particles but giant planets as you imagine them are impossible, IMPOSSIBLE. That this giant planet stupidity is still being trotted out kinda convinces me that I dealing with an inveterate idiot.

If you do believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere then why would it not be possible for our technology to have already wiped it out?

Oh I dunno, because we don't actually have that technology for instance? Whoops, sorry, I'm raining reality on your parade again...

Oh and I did not say I believed that intelligent life existed, I SAID THE PROBABILITY OF INTELLIGENT LIFE EXISTING WAS HIGH FOR REASONS I LAID OUT, IF YOU READ WHAT I TYPED YOU WOULD BE AWARE OF THIS.

As I pointed out earlier there is no time travel involved here only an ongoing process of life evolving repeatedly. This is another fact that we witness on a daily basis.

Which has no bearing on any of these fevered fantasies you produce.

Life may have been out there at some point in time and now it is gone and I think that we got rid of it by accident for our own self-preservation. This is only a supposition.

It's an empty assertion with just a soup con of self loathing.

If I have invented this reason for ET’s absence then you cannot rule out that it is not plausible, if you both think that finding life on any other world might be plausible.

Uhh yes I can, I can because it's stupid unknowable dreck without a shred of evidence and lacking in reason.

It can only be ruled out by discovering life on another world.

Yeah, that and the entire thing being a daft fantasy. Here's a clue, your notions are not awaiting ruling out, first you have to demonstrate them as plausible. Your unknowable tales - thanks to your convenient excuses - are anything but, it's not real until we find ET, it don't work like that.

I told the both of you awhile back that this was driving me nuts!

That's no excuse.

[Lateralman]

Inveterate idiot! No, Mr Wolf. A machine and a nine-month Turing test experiment with Artificial Intelligence techniques using all the participants of this site!

[M Paul Lloyd]

If you are trying to suggest that you are some kind of intelligent programme Lateral, well I'm sorry but you have failed utterly to prove your point, sorry.

[Shadowwolf]

Really!

A Turing Test AI all along, well I certainly never saw it. Mind you I'd invoke Poe's Law in our defence.

Anyhoo I guess that's that finished, no more from the Lateralman prog now that its artificial nature has been revealed. You must let us know when all this is written up and published, may I ask what institution you are with? Oh and why was it created to be so..., well absurd?

I'm still chuckling to myself, fooled for nine months by a computer programme..., except you arrived here roughly eleven months ago and started posting almost immediately...

[Lateralman]

Oops, sorry chaps, I could not resist it. I am not really 'Robbie the Robot.' I was thinking of saving that one for Mr Beige on April 1.

Have a cup of camomile tea. “I’ll BE BACK,” as soon as I have some solutions to this conversation after I have ploughed through my beautifully art directed “Big Book of Answers.” Which I must admit is exceedingly good value for money.

[The Beige Avenger]

Oops, sorry chaps, I could not resist it. I am not really 'Robbie the Robot.' I was thinking of saving that one for Mr Beige on April 1.
.....

I'm quite the fool.

[M Paul Lloyd]

That's the trouble with time travel isn't it? Always getting the date wrong.