BBC Focus Magazine

[Flakkarin]

I read a great article in Skeptic magazine about how there's no way cell phones can cause cancer based on the puny amount of electromagnetic radiation they give out, basically saying the heating is negligible.
I was wondering, given the hype about wireless routers causing people to feel sick, if such claims could be dismissed in similarly simple terms?

[M Paul Lloyd]

I would say that any risk with wifi would be somewhat less than with a cell phone as the range is, or at least appears to be, considerably shorter, and by default somewhat less powerful?
Therefore if cell phones don't make us ill I can't imagine wifi doing so and we have all been literally bathing in such forms of electromagnetic radiation for decades before the cell phone appeared.
I certainly have no concerns about using it.

[Croatguy]

Yeah, the electromagnetic radiation from the cell phone may be negliglble, but I do feel a slight headache if I talk with a cell phone inside the house compared to outside, so the phone is obviously trying to amplify its radius to attract a signal, which must cause some increase in radiation. I also noticed my head hurt when I was using wireless headphones for the TV. Maybe I just have a sensitive head for any kind of radiation

[M Paul Lloyd]

Sounds like your ears might be the problem there Croatguy?

[Shadowwolf]

Or selective bias and coincidence.

As for earphones, well when worn for periods they do press uncomfortably on the ears and the overhead arch also exerts pressure that all leads to points of soreness.

[Croatguy]

As for earphones, well when worn for periods they do press uncomfortably on the ears and the overhead arch also exerts pressure that all leads to points of soreness.

No, its defnitely the radiation, as I I swapped the earphones with the exact same pair but this time with a wire, and no more problems. And the type of headache I received from it is exactly the same as the one when talking on a cell phone. My head just aint built for wi-fi products

[The Beige Avenger]

As for earphones, well when worn for periods they do press uncomfortably on the ears and the overhead arch also exerts pressure that all leads to points of soreness.

No, its defnitely the radiation, as I I swapped the earphones with the exact same pair but this time with a wire, and no more problems. And the type of headache I received from it is exactly the same as the one when talking on a cell phone. My head just aint built for wi-fi products

Here's an example of some bad science; reaching a conclusion with hardly any evidence...

You've got to at least try a blind test... or go get a scan to make sure you don't have a tumour.

[Shadowwolf]

Yep Mr Croatguy you may well be confusing coincidence with causation, you don't know it has anything to do with radiation or the devices and such a small and heavily biased test will not reveal anything useful. For instance when you switched the headphones to wired was it a case of you knowing there was no emf hence no expectation of slight headache that meant you had none? This headache itself, slight you say but how slight, are you subjectively magnifying any minor discomfort and coming up with headache? In fact when was this noticed, does it happen each and every time you used the devices or does it do so only ever since you made the connection and actually check — slight discomfort is easily missed when distracted by other activities — to see? Could it be a case of nocebo? These are some of the questions you should be asking yourself before making any links, who knows a little honest examination and you might find that the link is no longer there.

As mentioned you are not going to effectively test this by yourself as there is just too much subjectivity, nor are we going to accurately assess it via forum posts, you need some form of blinding and that requires help. They may well be causing some slight headache — though all evidence so far suggests that these devices have no such effect — I certainly cannot conclusively say they are not, however I have also seen nothing that conclusively says that they are

[Croatguy]

Of course it is just my opinion. Okay, I should not have said 'defnitely' for radiation, but the most likely cause. I just cannot thing of anything else it could be. However, I can say for sure its defnitely not the pressure of the headphone, its defnitely not the weight of the headphone, its defnitely not the monitor, its defnitely not the position of my head, its defintely not the posture of my body, its defintely not the lighting of the room. If you can suggest other reasons then please do. I received the headache every time i used the wifi headphones, and I immediately recognized it as the headache I receive when talking with a mobile phone indoors which is how I made the connection that it is caused by the emf. Its no figment of my imagination, a headache is a headache. I remove the headphones - it dissapears. If thats a case of nocebo at work, I would be very surprised. The first time I used those wifi headphones I had no preassumption whatsoever that I would be affected by any emf. It wasnt like, oh I wonder if my head will hurt if I use these. I was totally suprised to receive a minor headache on first use within a couple of minutes.
When using the headphones with a wire, I was 100% certain I would not recieve a headache. You can say its placebo, but if someone was certain he did not have HIV after having contracted HIV, I am pretty certain he still has HIV.
Anyway, when all is said and done, I know what I know and I believe its caused from emf. Studies are still in their early stages but I wont be suprised if there is a report in 5 to 10 years time documenting the effects of wifi products with hard evidence.

[Croatguy]

or go get a scan to make sure you don't have a tumour

How long can you live with a brain tumour for? I cant imagine having a tumour for 12 years without any other symptoms.

[M Paul Lloyd]

It ususally depends what kind of tumour it is, benign or malignant and where excatly it is located, its a complicated subject that is probably a bit beyond the remit of this forum I fear?

[The Beige Avenger]

Anecdote:
http://newsok.com/radio-waves-cited-as- ... le/3400891

DEAR DR. GOTT: I am a 70-year-old man in good health. In spring 2006, I began to have severe headaches centered above my left eye. The headaches increased in severity and duration until I had one continuous headache. Over-the-counter pain relievers and prescription medicine did nothing to relieve the headache.
Advertisement

After about three months, I was practically an invalid. I couldn’t read the newspaper, work on my computer or even go out to the store. I couldn’t sleep for more than a couple of hours at a time. My short-term memory was also affected.

My family doctor was at a loss to explain my problem. I was referred to a neurologist. Again, no answers.

My wife, while trying to think of anything that had changed around the time the headaches started, realized that just a few weeks before the first headache, we had switched from a wired router to a wireless one. I used these to network my several computers. Having nothing to lose by trying, we switched back to the wired version. Within just a few days, the severity of the headaches began to diminish, followed by periods that were pain-free. After six weeks, I didn’t have headaches. It took more than a year for my sleep pattern to return to normal, but it did.

The neurologist and my family physician are both convinced that my brain is sensitive to the radio waves used by wireless routers (frequency of 802.11 gigahertz). This sensitivity has been verified by me on four separate occasions since. Each time I was in the presence of a wireless router for several hours, I noticed the beginnings of similar headaches, which lasted a few hours after leaving the location.

There must be others who have the same problem. Since no medical testing will show this problem, it would be difficult to diagnose.

DEAR READER: I have printed your letter because it describes a problem I haven’t heard of before.

Being a technophobe, I know little about computers, routers, cell phones and related devices. However, I am willing to believe that as usage of these gadgets increases, more people will experience adverse reactions, likely unknowingly, because of them.

This is not to say that everyone with headaches has them because of wireless routers, but if other causes cannot be determined, it may be worth looking into.

Readers may send a question to Gott c/o United Media, 200 Madison Ave., 4th Floor, New York, NY 10016. Gott is a retired physician and author of "Dr. Gott’s No Flour, No Sugar Diet” and "Dr. Gott’s No Flour, No Sugar Cookbook,” available at most bookstores.

Read more: http://newsok.com/radio-waves-cited-as- ... z0u871RS5e

poor paper:
http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/pdf/ ... adache.pdf

Another:
http://omega.twoday.net/stories/296447/


Croatguy... try wearing a foil hat.

[Shadowwolf]

It wasnt like, oh I wonder if my head will hurt if I use these.

Of course not, but you did know that they worked by transmitting a signal, radio waves, to your headset on your head; that is enough to create the association.

Anyway, when all is said and done, I know what I know and I believe its caused from emf.

That might be the problem, you think you know and have stopped there, it might be the cause but a subjective analysis of your recollections on the effects of mobile phones and wireless headset use will not be the most accurate.

Studies are still in their early stages but I wont be suprised if there is a report in 5 to 10 years time documenting the effects of wifi products with hard evidence.

And if they say there is no effect?

You can say its placebo, but if someone was certain he did not have HIV after having contracted HIV, I am pretty certain he still has HIV.

As far as I know you don't get placebo effects where bacterium, virii or cancers are concerned, it's generally unquantifiable things like back pain, head aches and so on.

[Croatguy]

"Anyway, when all is said and done, I know what I know and I believe its caused from emf."



That might be the problem, you think you know and have stopped there, it might be the cause but a subjective analysis of your recollections on the effects of mobile phones and wireless headset use will not be the most accurate.

Oh well, thats your opinion. I will be surprised if it wasnt the emf, but Id glady be a guniea pig to find out

"Studies are still in their early stages but I wont be suprised if there is a report in 5 to 10 years time documenting the effects of wifi products with hard evidence."



And if they say there is no effect?

If they say there is no effect, then I will accept it. Im not a conspiracy nut and will accept strong opposition evidence if its contrary to my view.

"You can say its placebo, but if someone was certain he did not have HIV after having contracted HIV, I am pretty certain he still has HIV."

As far as I know you don't get placebo effects where bacterium, virii or cancers are concerned, it's generally unquantifiable things like back pain, head aches and so on.

You never know with placebo - it can affect a lot of things. Anyway, thats another topic for another discussion. But im not the type of person thats gonna fall under placebo for a slight headache. I can say if I was blindfolded and never knew I had wifi equipment on my head, Im fairly confident I would still get the headache.

[Shadowwolf]

Oh well, thats your opinion.

It's not quite my opinion, our minds are fairly unreliable as an unbiased tool, it's why we have randomised double blind research controls in science, to factor out subjective human interpretation of data. Otherwise we can never be certain if the effect we think we see is real or just what we wanted to find.

You never know with placebo - it can affect a lot of things.

Well some things that placebo or nocebo effects cannot do is give you bacterial or viral infections, neither will they make them go away, you either have an infection or you do not because bacterium and viruses are physical entities. Headaches like many body pains often have nothing to do with any bacterial or viral infections, a sugar pill or jigged about water placebo can mitigate these pains if you believe they can and if someone were to expect that an external cause would bring on such discomforts then that someone would via a nocebo effect, perceive a headache.

But im not the type of person thats gonna fall under placebo for a slight headache.

You could very easily do so subconsciously, once you made the first connection between a random mild discomfort and cell phone usage you may have inadvertently set the stage, these mild headaches are now expected with the phone and headset so you perceive them or even any mild nuisance as being related.

I can say if I was blindfolded and never knew I had wifi equipment on my head, Im fairly confident I would still get the headache.

That's what I'm talking about, you say that ever before you would do some tests you have decided what their outcome would be, the cause and effect you think exists. That's practically declaring the emf as the cause before any test has been done, which is a clear bias and exactly why trials need to be blinded and randomised. This certainty of these particular emfs causing you headaches could also very easily create a nocebo effect, it might also be a real cause and effect but you don't actually know that you just think you do. You being blindfolded for a few tests would be helpful as well as actually wearing the equipment, the test would be whether you experienced the discomfort when the unit was on or not, or connected or not, but those conditions would have to be completely unknown to you to rule out contaminating factors.

[Flakkarin]

On a related note... anyone have an idea about the risks of large RF jammers? I have a friend who was in the US military, and discussing this topic he asked me what I thought about the potential risks of the large jamming devices they used on all the trucks they rode around on (like this http://www.netline.co.il/page/vehicle_mounted_bomb_jammers.aspx)
These presumably produce quite a lot of radiation compared to a single cell phone in order to block out a wide range of signals? Is the radiation, and the potential risks, much greater?

[M Paul Lloyd]

I'm pretty sure Jammers are designed to be directional and although prolonged exposure to the levels of radiation they emit could be harmful (just as can the radar equipment in military aircraft) if you are inside the vehicle you should be fine.
However, when you join the military you are effectively agreeing to put yourself in harms way for the greater good of your fellow countrymen, risk of harm kind of goes with the job.

[Shadowwolf]

I'd be with Mr M and add one further point.

The things are meant to primarily halt transmitted detonation instructions, no jammer, go boom. So even if the increased signal strength had the potential to effect ones health, it beats being scattered to the winds via large IED.

[Flakkarin]

Of course, of course, my friend would rather have a little radiation than be blown up! It was just a discussion piece really. Interesting about the signal being directed outside the vehicle though MPL, thanks, I'll pass it on.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Well I am a 'tinkerer' after all.