BBC Focus Magazine

[Dash Lightning]

The only educational games I ever played at secondary school and college involved nothing but pairing cards - if you didn't know the material, you weren't made curious enough to find out, and if you did it was no challenge.

But now, as the current students going through GCSE's and A levels are preparing for the much predicted zombie invasion by using new interesting ways to kill them on their consoles, should the educational system step up to the plate?

Bulbasaur's vine whip will easily defeat a Geodude - and I remember that from playing on Pokemon, which I haven't touched for 5 years (honest!). How hard would it be to make a similar game, but using real pocket monsters. I've been thinking that the immune system would be brilliant as a warfare game. Boys are falling further behind girls in academic achievement each year - they love warfare games right? The idea might not be to teach 12 year olds everything about the immune system, but they would have a background knowledge, and when it comes up at GCSE, they'll think "oh yeah, hang on, this rings a bell" and their curiosity will be aroused.

Also, does anyone know how long it takes to make a simple java game one might find on any website? How hard would it be to make a game that models gravity, using the actually formulae?
"Adjust the speed of this spacecraft to put it into orbit"

(That one is a particular crux of my A-level physics gravity formulas )

So, this 5:30am rant (due to coffee intake to finish off some revision) is aimed at:

Should there be a more advertised role in games/software developing in education?

[M Paul Lloyd]

When it comes to 'a game that models gravity, using the actually formulae'
"Adjust the speed of this spacecraft to put it into orbit" I am pretty sure these already exist and I had an online one in my favourites file but sadly lost it when my pooter crashed recently.

I think Mr. Shadowwolf may be able to assist further?

[Ush]

If students aren't interested as it is they probably never will be. Well, maybe that's a little too pessimistic for some so perhaps I should say that boosting achievement is possible to at least a small extent. Boosting achievement has been tried for a long time though and I think they found in the 60's that attempts to do so aren't really fruitful. I think that is the conclusion of an article by Aurthur Jensen called "How much can we boost IQ and scholastic achievement?" I have not yet completed the article but I'm pretty sure that's the conclusion.

Remember that to be interested in school one must have certain congenital traits and the outcome you describe, is at least mostly, because of such congenital traits (genes in other words). If you wish for a different outcome then you must instigate a eugenics policy.

None of this is to say that average achievement can not be boosted by a change of the educational and other social systems. Snobbish attitudes of employers for example can place a ceiling on the actual achievement of an individual who has substantially greater competency than the typical person - think for example of a super-smart working-class individual who has a particular accent and manner but is prevented from progressing up the socio-economic ladder by their boss who is less competent and refuses to give that working-class person a promotion, choosing instead to give a promotion to a upper-middle class individual who happened to go to a particular school but is incompetent. People are a diverse bunch and placing all of them in the same education system, a system which has curricula which will inevitably appeal to only a small cross section of the population, is a daft idea anyway.

Didn't Robert Matthews write an article for January's Focus in which he informed us that the UK education minister down-right rejected a 600 page report on the education system? The mister, without evidence, declared a panel of experts and years of research to be wrong.

I pine for the day when the words of politicians are relegated to the Annals of Human Stupidity and burned.

[Esther]

When computers first became 'mainstream' there was a rush of wonderful educational software. Edmark in particular produced some fantastic stuff, including Space Academy (I have a spare copy if anyone wants it) where you can do all kinds of stuff including sending space craft into orbit and do slingshots around the moon. Here's a link... http://www.superkids.com/aweb/pages/rev ... erge.shtml Some of their math programmes were brilliant too.

Check out edmark's carnival countdown, number heroes, cosmic geometry, astro algebra, the 'thinking things' collections and the electricity and light virtual labs. Other unmissables were incredible machine / contraptions, gizmo's 'n gadgets and widget workshop. And if you can lay your hands on a copy of talking fingers' 'read, write and type' you'll see just how fantastic computer education can be, assuming you can turn your brain back to the way it used to think before it could read, otherwise borrow a pre-literate kid and watch the magic at work as he plays his way to literacy.

There were also a lot of really boring 'games' produced, which put a lot of kids off 'edutainment' for life. Companies like DK brought out glossy packges which sold well, ran smoothly, and were packed with info but were dead boring to actually use.

But the real problem turned out to be that while kids learned well playing the games, they didn't learn what was on the syllabus, which meant that it didn't help them get good grades, which means that schools won't invest in them, and neither will parents (why should they when grades are so important?) so after a few glorious years when all kind of wondrous stuff was produced, the bottom fell out of the market and almost no-one produces good educational games any more. The few that are left mostly won't run on anything as modern as windows xp. I still keep an old desktop for 'playing' some of the stuff I bought years ago as it's too good to lose.

The Game Institute have a course about Using Games in Education designed to educate teachers about the potetial of using games in the classroom. http://www.gameinstitute.com/Using_Game ... ation.html

[Jamie]

I think the problem is academia itself. Not everyone is cut out for sitting in classes listening to teachers rattle on at them about subjects they are forced to take (sciences for example) but that they're not actually interested in. Hence they get bored and disrupt for everyone else.

You want to improve the performance of pupils ? Then offer them more choices. I seem to remember many aeons ago you could do apprencticeships when you were about 14 or so ? Get your basic English and Maths and learn a trade if you like. Don't force them to sit through 2 years of biology if they're not interested.

I know it may seem pointless in the service driven, manufacturing free environment we live in these days, but who knows ? Perhaps your practically trained apprentice may develop an interest in something related to his chosen trade, and decide to expand upon his education later.

Or perhaps it's better that we try to force youngsters down paths they are not interested in and them write them off when they don't meet the acceptable norm? Hence your Jeremy Kyle generation of kids all serving burgers to each other.

That's what I think anyways.

[Colm]

You mean computer games? Interesting though it would mean every student needs a computer. To be honest I think a war game might be more suited to history than science... How much about the immune system can you learn from a game where presumably the anticbodies fight the intruders (if I have that right) and also, how much does a gcse or a levvel student *need* to know about it?

The gravity one might be interesting though, but again it's prob easier to teach that G = m1m2/d^2*6.7*10^-11 and the different formulae involved by just having it in a book rather than somehow simulating it in a game. I suppose the game may be more suited to story based things than mathematical type stuff...

[Ush]

I agree with you Jamie. Just what is the point in forcing a student to sit through years of lessons which they aren't interested in and perform poorly at? Remembering too that they will never use the knowledge they learn anyway or probably never even remember any of it. I am very sceptical of the idea of people being "culturally enriched" by education, maybe some will be enriched a little but it hardly seems worthwhile spending so much time and money trying to enrich people and failing at it so completly.

I am a very big fan of teaching literacy and numeracy and some other skill which will benefit individuals throughout their whole lives but the present system(s) is archaic and needs binning. Most people need to pursue a career path which doesn't involve academia and trades strike me as a very good idea.

[Esther]

We seem to be sliding off topic a little, but for anyone who doesn't feel that academia is the best form of education but doesn't know where to go instead, check out 'The Secrets of a Buccaneer Scholar' by James Bach.

James Bach, son of author Richard Bach, was a moody teenager. He left home at 14 and dropped out of school at 16. He appeared to be aimless and lazy, and that's how he thought of himself. Yet, at the age of 20 he was the youngest technical manager at Apple Computer. Despite having no formal education he went on to become an internationally recognized expert in the field of computer software testing.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Secrets-Buccaneer-Scholar-Self-education-Lifetime/dp/1847375359/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262898081&sr=8-1

[Shadowwolf]

Educational games, sends a shiver down the spines of all game lovers, badly implemented, usually awful and often with no relevance to what would come up come exam time as there was no integration just some groups hoping to make money by being loosely relevant in general. The only useful ones are for the very young teaching the very basic. Like some one already pointed, if you have no interest then you are not going to recall it unless by constant repetition which usually means the student might be able to rattle it off but does not understand it.

I think Mr. Shadowwolf may be able to assist further?

Indeed he might, I believe you might mean Orbiter which can be found here http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/, it is dated now and may not work with the latest OS though.

The few that are left mostly won't run on anything as modern as windows xp. I still keep an old desktop for 'playing' some of the stuff I bought years ago as it's too good to lose.

One could try a DOS emulator and look around the licence abandoned games, Abandonia here http://www.abandonia.com/ has the emulator, instructions and may have some edutainment titles in its unsorted category.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Ah Orbiter, thank you so much Mr.S.

Right then, lateral inclination 2 degrees starboard and one degree yaw, fire main thrusters 5,4,3,2,1......... oops!

[Ush]

I played educational games in the early 90s - my old man received review copies - they were entertaining but I don't think I really learned anything from them.

[Jamie]

But now, as the current students going through GCSE's and A levels are preparing for the much predicted zombie invasion by using new interesting ways to kill them on their consoles, should the educational system step up to the plate?

Thinking about it, that sums it up quite nicely. No mater what, a game to develop a complex vaccine or medical solution to any future zombie apocalypse is never going to be as exciting or fulfiling as just plain shooting them in the head with an M16 Assault Rifle.

The only way to stop kids wasting their time on games is not to buy the consoles in the first place.

The book looks interesting Esther, but I feel it is missing the point a bit (from what I can tell from the synopsis anyway ) . Success is very subjective in my eyes, yes earing loads of cash and being the best at what you do is admirable but to be honest, some people are quite happy just doing what they do. Not everyone has the drive and ambition to be the best and there's nothing wrong with that. I have relatives that have had the same jobs since they left school at 16 (20 years ago) and they are perfectly happy.

Off topic again, I know. I should know better !

[Esther]

The book looks interesting Esther, but I feel it is missing the point a bit (from what I can tell from the synopsis anyway ) . Success is very subjective in my eyes, yes earing loads of cash and being the best at what you do is admirable but to be honest, some people are quite happy just doing what they do. Not everyone has the drive and ambition to be the best and there's nothing wrong with that. I have relatives that have had the same jobs since they left school at 16 (20 years ago) and they are perfectly happy.

It's not as bad as the synopsis makes out. It's probably best for teenage potential drop-outs who don't agree with school/college and the impression it seems to leave on them is that if school doesn't agree with them it's not a problem, just take charge of your own education and career. My son got it for his 14th birthday from my ex and it's been inspirational for him. I'm no longer his 'teacher' so much as a provider of whatever he needs to help him learn what he wants to study next. He's costing me a fortune in boebots and programming books though...

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The only way to stop kids wasting their time on games is not to buy the consoles in the first place.

That worked for ages with mine until the day he managed to pick up a play station at a car boot sale for 40p. It was quite educational though as he then had to figure out how to modify it to run the pile of dodgy games he found at the next boot sale. I think he found it more fun doing the mods than playing the games in the end

[Nails]

Some games can provide the interest to learn more about a subject or teach some basic knowledge in order to further your progress.

When my son was younger, he loved playing 'Age of Empires' and it sparked a a small but noticable improvement in his desire to learn about history.

It lasted a couple of years but his grades did improve and he certainly read up a little to find the strengths and weaknesses of each army.

Unfortunatey, playing 'Assasins Creed' did not spark the same interest in learning about the crusades, but you don't need to learn about history to kill people.

But yes, I think it is a great idea to base games on factual settings and either require some knowledge to advance or teach something in the games execution.

[Ush]

I felt this quote from the above mentioned paper was somewhat relevant:

Intelligence has indeed been singled out as especially important by the educational and occupational demands prevailing in all industrial societies, but it is nevertheless a biological reality and not just a figment of social convention. Where educators and society in general are most apt to go wrong is in failing fully to recognize and fully to utilize a broader spectrum of abilities than just that portion which psychologists have technically designated as "intelligence."

Remember that physics-simulation game we had linked somewhere, (I think Jamie linked it) well, what was it called?

[Jamie]

That'll be Phun.

http://www.phunland.com/wiki/Home

Nice memory recall there Ush.

[Dash Lightning]

Wow, i can't wait until these exams are over, phun here we come!

[Jamie]

Self control, nice.

[Dash Lightning]

Plus limited internet download at uni

[Liam Sheppard]

games in education have to be easy to understand, appeal to the vast majority and not take up too much time..