BBC Focus Magazine

[Hyrulian Outlaw]

As I know many of you (myself included) believe that the majority of religion is science fiction I thought this was the most apt place for this topic. I by no means wish to insult those of you who do not follow this view.

I know that religious talk is frowned upon a little here as most of the discusions about it end up in pointless arguments and "my view is right and thats that" talk.

So, dogma and pointless "facts" aside my question is -

If you dont believe what would it take in science to prove to you that god is real?

For example, would the finding of the Ark convince you it happened if it was backed up scientifically.

likewise if you are an ardent believer would there be anything science could prove that would turn the tide for you?

[M Paul Lloyd]

Hmmm an interesting ploy this, religious debate via the back door.

Ok I'll go with it for now and see how it goes. I too have no wish to upset any religious believers, after all if it works for you then so be it, nice club, make the most of it I say, it just isn't for me.

As far as I am concerned we are alone in the universe and until we collectively accept that slightly unnerving and lonely fact we are doomed to remain tied to our religiously maternal apron strings.

And well fact is I can think of no actual scientific event that would convince me that god, as in an all powerful pan universal deity, existed. Even if something 'manifested' itself in my very presence and proclaimed itself to be 'god' complete with all the miracles and such like in tow I would still assume it was some alien con trick.

I guess that rather negates the question doesn't it?

[Szymy]

Ok I'll go with it for now and see how it goes. I too have no wish to upset any religious believers, after all if it works for you then so be it, nice club, make the most of it I say, it just isn't for me.

As far as I am concerned we are alone in the universe and until we collectively accept that slightly unnerving and lonely fact we are doomed to remain tied to our religiously maternal apron strings.

And well fact is I can think of no actual scientific event that would convince me that god, as in an all powerful pan universal deity, existed. Even if something 'manifested' itself in my very presence and proclaimed itself to be 'god' complete with all the miracles and such like in tow I would still assume it was some alien con trick.

I guess that rather negates the question doesn't it?

I completely agree with you there and nearly all of my friends would support you as well.

[Shadowwolf]

I must disagree on the upset, to be honest I must say that I really don't care whether religious people are upset or not — though I'd wager no one is surprised by that — when the clear shortcomings of many if not all of the belief systems are pointed out, you call a spade a spade and by sugaring things to avoid upset only leads to trouble. Especially when these same systems seek to suggest that those beliefs carry the ability to objectively answer questions and explain the world and its workings equal to science. People may believe what they like but if they are going to go about sharing this as though it were a foregone fact, then they may expect absurdities to be laughed at as much as one may laugh at flat earther claims or time cubed guy.

If you dont believe what would it take in science to prove to you that god is real?

Hard to say, possibly something that could create another earth by our own without any impact to the rest of the solar system, and populated with an amazing variety of new species including intelligent ones that look as though they evolved over eons even though it happened at the snap of a finger without a single device anywhere in sight. Maybe a being that could return all those dead loved ones to the physical realm, raise long dead pets, take you back in time and also tell you exactly what you are going to do for the next week. Despite this fore-knowledge you would do exactly what was foretold along with the horrible knowledge that you are a powerless marionette going along with a cosmic script, because it has already been seen.

For example, would the finding of the Ark convince you it happened if it was backed up scientifically.

About all you would have would be a shell of an ancient wooden ship, there would not be much to tell from that which could not be explained by other more plausible means.

likewise if you are an ardent believer would there be anything science could prove that would turn the tide for you?

Though I am not an ardent believer I would wager that the answer is often no, many have already managed to dismiss the science that rubbishes their chosen belief like Creationists regularly do. Others still cling to the beliefs despite the absurdities, logical contradictions and tyrannical elements of the dogma. Whilst others move their deity further away from the light of science for its own protection but also make the deity more pointless as they do so. Basically if you want to have a faith in something then you will and no amount of reason or evidence will ever dent that, be it god, alien abductions or the new world order unless the believer is willing to open their mind to some critical thinking the faith shall remain.

[nemisis39]

When i 1st read the title i thought it was going to be a debate on religions used in science fiction . Which in itself would probably be a interesting topic ( side note ill post a new thread for it ) im with Mpl on most of it apart from this bit

[quote] As far as I am concerned we are alone in the universe and until we collectively accept that slightly unnerving and lonely fact we are doomed to remain tied to our religiously maternal apron strings. [/quote]

Totally disagree that we alone and that if it was proven that we wern't, religieon would still be with us i don't think people would lose there particular faith just because ET has landed

[quote] If you dont believe what would it take in science to prove to you that god is real?
[/quote]

i don't think that the scientific community would want to prove that god existed would it as it would cast doubt over the darwin theory for one plus no doubt a whole host of others

[M Paul Lloyd]

Good point Nemesis, when I said 'alone' I really meant as in devoid of any overseeing all powerful deity rather than just 'the neighbours'.

[Dash Lightning]

What if time travel were discovered...
Go back in time to 0 AD
Find Jesus, or whichever religious figure you feel like, and witness a miracle... Now even i would have trouble. Although you could say aliens did it no Jesus, but then why are they not around still, maybe they are. Maybe they're the ones causing all these other miracles...

[Shadowwolf]

Find Jesus, or whichever religious figure you feel like, and witness a miracle... Now even i would have trouble.

Maybe but like Mr Clark said, any sufficiently advanced technology would appear miraculous to those who don't have any concept of what is going on.

Totally disagree that we alone and that if it was proven that we wern't, religieon would still be with us i don't think people would lose there particular faith just because ET has landed

I think that whilst it is very probable that there is other intelligent life somewhere out there, until we have evidence we are left with us being alone so far. I'd agree that even were ET to show up most faiths would carry on regardless, only a minority would have difficulties and even they manage to get around the obvious like literalist creationism has done.

[M Paul Lloyd]

What if time travel were discovered...
Go back in time to 0 AD
Find Jesus, or whichever religious figure you feel like, and witness a miracle... Now even i would have trouble. Although you could say aliens did it no Jesus, but then why are they not around still, maybe they are. Maybe they're the ones causing all these other miracles...

I am inclined to think that many would be disappointed to find that the man did not measure up to the legend.

[nemisis39]

I am inclined to think that many would be disappointed to find that the man did not measure up to the legend.

Or indeed you could find that you are that man

Good point Nemesis, when I said 'alone' I really meant as in devoid of any overseeing all powerful deity rather than just 'the neighbours'.

misinterpratation of what you put on my part MPL i should have known better

[M Paul Lloyd]

No problem Nemesis and easy mistake to make given my lack of clarity.


He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!!!

Sorry couldn't resist that. Sorry.

[nemisis39]

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!!!

Follow the shoe

[M Paul Lloyd]

Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!

Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.

Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!

Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!

I rest my case.

[Dash Lightning]

I have a keyring that says the best monty python quotes, and thats one of them!

[Liam Sheppard]

jesus waked on water.. twas a cold winter!

a time traveller with medicine, and technology indeed would be like a saviour.. talking in a walkie talkie to 'god'..

heh heh..

I don't waste my time even trying to think about whether there is an afterlife or not, I just worry about the here and now.. what will be will be and whether I believe, understand or 'know' has no bearing on it.. unlike the past however which I am very interested to know about!

science would have to find 'heaven', or be able to bring people back from the dead (afterlife) who could then give corrobarating evidence

[Szymy]

I don't waste my time even trying to think about whether there is an afterlife or not, I just worry about the here and now.. what will be will be and whether I believe, understand or 'know' has no bearing on it.. unlike the past however which I am very interested to know about!

science would have to find 'heaven', or be able to bring people back from the dead (afterlife) who could then give corrobarating evidence

Even though I consider myself to be 100% atheist, for some reason I do believe (or maybe believe is too much of a strong term - should I use hope?) there is an afterlife and always imagine myself coming back as a lovely beautiful domesticated cat in a loving home with caring owners... I am strange?

[Liam Sheppard]

sounds like your agnostic to me... maybe there is meaybe there aint,, who knows

[Szymy]

Maybe in the future Science could give us answers regarding afterlife.... as you said for now - who knows?

[M Paul Lloyd]

Well, if you could download your 'self' onto some sort of hard drive...........................??

[Shadowwolf]

Then after many months use find that your fragmented and bits of you are all over the place. Then to speed things up you get compressed and what some other person deems as junk gets deleted