BBC Focus Magazine

[MikeG]

Isn't it funny how modern-day mysteries seem to involve UFOs and aliens, when a hundred or so years ago they involved witches, gods, demons, spririts & and magic?

When people cannot explain things they are adept at making up explanations, and cultural references form a major part of this - and this neatly fits in with how we suspect that our memories work.

Good point there Nails. I remember reading that more people began reporting UFO's when sci-fi as a genre became more popular. However, I also remember reading somewhere that UFOs where also apparently described in medieval Europe. The link below shows a woodcutting by a Swiss artist in 1566. It does seem quite similar to modern reports of UFO's. Truth is though, I had never heard of Samuel Coccius before. I'll get around to googling him and post back if this carving does not actually exist, or if was intended to depict something else.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case485.htm

[M Paul Lloyd]

Yes I'm very much with you both there, and a lot of interpretation of UFO's from times past, such as the Basel woodcut, tend to be retrospective, in as much as we place our own modern day ideas onto them and our wish to make them real rather than just imaginary.
Tales of Atlantis comes to mind here..

The Hollywood connection is evident too in that 'flying saucers' started appearing in our skies around the time that films such as 'The Day The Earth Stood Still' and 'The Thin' (both of which features circular spacecraft) were produced. Although interestingly the 'flying pie dish' description from the 1947 sighting by one Kenneth Arnold that popularised the idea of flying saucers predates the film version by three years and what he described was not actually a true circle but had an angular tail end.
Apologies for using Wiki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arnol ... rawing.jpg

[Shadowwolf]

The link below shows a woodcutting by a Swiss artist in 1566.

I think it's genuine but whatever prompted it or the report is unlikely to be extra-terrestrial in origin. Why would any intelligence send ships over here to ram each other and be destroyed? It's an oddity but with virtually no useful information nothing can be said of it.

[MikeG]

The most reliable we site I could find for this woodcutting is a foreign language wiki page, which also has a quote attributed to the artist.

Hand-coloured woodprint by Samuel Coccius, Basle Switzerland 1566. August 7th many black globes moved before the sun at great speed and seemed to be fighting.

http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fișier:Aerial_conflict.jpg

A more complete quotation from another website:

At the time when the sun rose, one saw many large black balls which moved at high speed in the air towards the sun, then made half-turns, banging one against the others as if they were fighting a battle out a combat, a great number of them became red and igneous, thereafter they were consumed and died out.

http://www.altereddimensions.net/aliens ... attle.aspx

Sorry I couldn't come up with anything better. Still quite interesting though.

[nemisis1960]

and this neatly fits in with how we suspect that our memories work.

or manipulated by the greys to make us remember what we see hear and do

[M Paul Lloyd]

a great number of them became red and igneous, thereafter they were consumed and died out.

As invasion plans go it doesn't sound all that successful, but yes MikeG, definitely most interesting.

Of course we have to ask the question, was this an account of an actual observed event or just a tale intended to entertain?

[MikeG]

Of course we have to ask the question, was this an account of an actual observed event or just a tale intended to entertain?

Samuel CoccIus was writing for his local newspaper, so I imagine he was describing an event that was witnessed. One possible explanation of this event might be a fireworks display, which most people would have been unfamiliar with at that time. Although fireworks became popular in Europe around the 15th century, they were known to the Arabs in the 12th century. So that's at least possible. Any other ideas what this could be?

[MikeG]

Although fireworks became popular in Europe around the 15th century...

Sorry, that should read "Although fireworks became popular in Europe around the 17th century".

[M Paul Lloyd]

Any other ideas what this could be?

Well if it is an actual, factual account (and let's face it newspapers are prone to manipulating the facts) I'm a bit perplexed.
The reported event was said to actually have taken place in April 1561 and it does rather look as if a large number of dark objects fell from the sky in flames but as to what they might be, or indeed where they came from I'm struggling to come up with anything.
I can find no record of volcanic activity at that time, although it cannot be discounted but my money would be on say debris from a very large forest fire some distance away that had carried charred material high into the atmosphere (on a vertical plume of hot air) where, starved of oxygen, it merely smouldered until it descending back down to more oxygen rich air where it re-ignited?
Possibly?

[Lateralman]

Take me to your leader. Why is nobody listening?

[Shadowwolf]

I think 1561 was an earlier if similar event at Nuremberg and the Basel one was 1566 Mr M.

As for what caused them if indeed there was anything. With virtually no information and what there is being so vague in addition to being related through 16th century eyes it is pretty much impossible to reach any useful conclusion; hell we can't even say for certain that anything happened. I don't think there's enough to make a case to answer in the first place never mind the best guess process we're left with.

[MikeG]

I think 1561 was an earlier if similar event at Nuremberg and the Basel one was 1566 Mr M.

Very interesting SW. This particular event in Nuremberg was interpreted in a religious light. Brings to mind your comments on another post on this forum regarding Ezekiel and his "wheels within wheels"

[M Paul Lloyd]

I think 1561 was an earlier if similar event at Nuremberg and the Basel one was 1566 Mr M.

No, truly Mr.S I'm pretty sure they are one and the same event. News must have been a bit slow back then.

Hans Glaser woodcut from 1566 of the 1561 event over Nuremberg. Wickiana Collection, Zurich Central Library

http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case486.htm

[MikeG]

No, truly Mr.S I'm pretty sure they are one and the same event. News must have been a bit slow back then.

Maybe not MPL. Here's another link discussing more such events from all over the globe. According to the article, Michelangelo is mentioned as having been a witness, whose painting of such an event has since been lost.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/04/a-ufo ... -to-today/

[M Paul Lloyd]

I bow to the majority ...........

I'm sticking with my natural event hypothesis though.

[MikeG]

I'm sticking with my natural event hypothesis though.

Here's a link that supports your natural event hypothesis. It describes events discussed by Aristotle and Cicero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog

[M Paul Lloyd]

Sun Dogs..... amazing, never seen or heard of those before.

[Shadowwolf]

No, truly Mr.S I'm pretty sure they are one and the same event. News must have been a bit slow back then.

Whilst the images were created in the same year the events were reported in 1561 for Nuremberg and 1566 for Basel and are also different in content, it's definitely two different stories, however, whether they are even real events or the second story was copied from the first is another matter.

Maybe not MPL. Here's another link discussing more such events from all over the globe. According to the article, Michelangelo is mentioned as having been a witness, whose painting of such an event has since been lost.

The issue with much of this is that the old sightings are somewhat like biblical miracles, the sort of thing that happens when there is next to no means of recording, corroborating or examining the claim. But when we live in a place where all this is so much easier, the more fantastical stuff, great battles over towns / cities, emitting fiery beams and the like, well they just up and vanish.

We know that modern sightings are as a result of hoaxes, misidentifying known craft, sighting of secret military craft or projects, misidentifying astronomical and weather phenomena, hysteria and polluted by pop culture. There's also no credible evidence for anything outside of these parameters. So whilst a number of the aforementioned parameters are not relevant in older alleged sightings, some still remain and are the most likely explanation. The whole ET craft thing is still a claim bereft of any physical evidence and that's these days with all our sensors, imaging devices and connected communities, never mind the suspect recollections of yore.

[...]

All the witches,gods, demons, spririts & and magic? could well have been alien visitors.
Im not supporting aliens here just being objective.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Or all just the product of over active human delusional imagination?