BBC Focus Magazine

[Shadowwolf]

It's almost as if Elusive11 hadn't read anything else posted in this entire thread, just saw the Emoto title and decided it needed a cut and paste opinion piece from elsewhere - Google the first line and you'll find it as I'm not linking it.

There is no opinion, no response to other posts, no nothing beyond this random paste job based on the keywords in the title. That's because Elusive is a bot, probably a spam one of the variety that pretends to be a normal user for a while before inserting links via their sig or some other manner.

It is indeed BS Mr Isaksson but in this case so is the user.

[MrIsaksson]

lol, i was tricked to respond by a bot
That will teach me

[M Paul Lloyd]

This has been such a well researched and informative discussion.


Aye, like right, whatever.

[Lateralman]

Academics chatting to boiled rice! Golly gosh no, conversing with ‘Rice Crackers’ would be a far better alternative to discovering a grain of truth in this theory.

[Shadowwolf]

I understand a scientific skepticism, however why not just do the experiment multiple times as accurately as possible like a lab experiment? What always seems to baffle me is the fact we are here we are alive we live in an incomprehensible Universe with dimensions we can't even see. There have been billions of different life forms and who knows how large the Universe is or whether there is the multi-verse? Think of what might be out there and the infinite possibilities. We limit our possibilities collectively as a planet and it's time to evolve or die. We must become aware of more than our 5 senses. If you think this is not possible just consider what I have said above, anything is possible. If you think your life is crap, guess what it's crap. If you look for what you love in life that is what you will see much of the time, especially in yourself and others. Thought has real power and if you want to talk science try looking at placebo data just for starters. If we all limited our imagination we would not have developed to the point in which we have. Think of all the technology we have first imagined and then created. Yes I am skeptical, however I have never done the experiment because I don't have to as I already know thought is incredibly powerful. One day we will look back after we have begun to learn how to really tap into the brain and/or the mind and maybe the individual and collective soul...... and we will think how primitive we were, thats easy just look back in history. Exploration to the stars is awesome and into the sea and all sorts of experiments, but ultimately the human mind is in my and many others opinions is the final frontier so to speak. If we do not evolve the mind then we might be doomed. I say rather than not believe try the experiment properly and find out. However, if you are negative during the process then what will it tell you. If one opens themselves up to the potentiality then that is where the great minds separate themselves from the rest. What I have seen is videos posted confirming the experiment. And there have been and there are continued experiments on the power of the mind using Buddhist monks and serious mediators in other controlled experiments using FMRI show through data what a snippet of what the mind can do. And cooked rice is not dead, if it were dead it would not turn to mold. Simply get a powerful microscope and look at the cooked rice and you will see it is teaming with life. To date we cannot find the smallest particles because every time we get a more powerful means of finding particles we find more and the same goes for telescopes. I assume everyone here is aware of Fractal Geometry. Can you explain where the Universe came from? Some things are beyond our current comprehension and to date we can't prove everything. As I said in the future if we evolve and release our unlimited positive potential we will look back and say "how could these people not see what is so obvious". In fact great minds of the past even 5000 years BC had more imagination than most around today. Now many of these great minds which were captured in writing there view of atoms and particles and energy... are being born out by science today. Just math equations written a very, very long time ago we have just recently solved and we needed computers to do it and decades of very hard work. Calculus and the Greeks, Newton, Enstein, electromagnetism, gravity is weak, atoms are 90% nothing, the weak force, the strong force, dark matter... If you didn't believe you could do something then you couldn't do it, but you do believe. Therefore, if your going to believe then climb the ladder and then set it on fire. Risk is the mathematically odds so why not roll the dice until they come-up 7's? Life is too short in my opinion so why not take some chances and believe? It's just my personal opinion as thats all we have and you are entitled to yours without any judgment from anyone else. Some people need to see it to believe it, while others believe it and then see it and that is how the greatest minds imagined and then created. The greatest power in the Universe is love (go ahead and get a test tube or do the math so you can believe it, but you don't need to because you know it's true emotions have power) and when we all realize that then we will have the world we imagine in our dreams. I am in favor of science, but we should not exclude the science of the mind as we are just at the beginning stages of a very long journey. I choose not to wait for all the data to come in and I believe I have health and love and success, why not? Best intentions to all 23

[Shadowwolf]

There, fixed it, fyi there is no reason for making an entire post in super-sized font as it makes the post needlessly long and does nothing for the content. Otherwise welcome along Mr herenow23

What always seems to baffle me is the fact we are here we are alive we live in an incomprehensible Universe with dimensions we can't even see.

But it's not incomprehensible, sure we've only begun to scratch the surface but we're able to explain more and more with each passing day and it seems to operate on very discernible, understandable principles we can access.

If you think this is not possible just consider what I have said above, anything is possible.

Well anything plausible is possible, other stuff like say... homeopathy, that's not.

Thought has real power and if you want to talk science try looking at placebo data just for starters.

It's also far less than some may like to imagine and the placebo effect is often severely oversold. It's mostly confined to the realms of subjective pain relief and trivial issues, it does not kill pathogens or cancer. Your frame of mind will help your overall response to disease etc. but it will not deal with serious issues, that requires specific medical interventions or death beckons.

Yes I am skeptical, however I have never done the experiment because I don't have to as I already know thought is incredibly powerful.

Well then I'd respectfully suggest that you're not if you're going to simply a-priori decide that you don't have to do an experiment, you don't have to have evidence because you've already decided what the answers going to be.

And cooked rice is not dead, if it were dead it would not turn to mold.

The rice itself is dead if thoroughly cooked, it does not turn to mold, mold is a fungus that uses the dead matter to feed on and spread, it's a separate organism.

In regards to Emoto, I've seen no credible evidence for the assertions made, no adequate controls that would lead to any useful data from the "experiments" or even a phenomenon worth investigating, no mechanism by which anything could plausibly occur and thus every reason to dismiss these baseless assertions. I don't believe merely because it sounds nice or that's how I'd like it to be, I demand evidence for a claim and if that's not forthcoming then I'll be dismissing it and I will be relatively assured that reality will accord with that position. We get that evidence from science which includes neuro-science, wishful thinking profits us none because ultimately, it's not real.

[herenow23]

Thanks bro,

First time here and I had problems viewing the smaller font, eyesight deal. Yes, I thought of editing it and your right. I just get on a roll and I haven't slept for a day and I'm pounding the coffee in an attempt to stay awake until I can snooze. I had to get it out before I lost the stream if you will, and I'm too tired to edit it. I need to focus on clarity, next time I'll do a better job. Thanks for the edit, good job. I'm happy to edit or delete my post if it's possible, I don't know yet as it's my first time here.

As we say in Hawaii (even though I recently moved after 3 decades there), Mahalo Nui Loa,

23

[Shadowwolf]

No problem, btw whilst it may be hard to see there is a font re-sizer right below the 'Forum' option on the site navigation bar that will slightly enlarge the type but only for you; alternately I'm sure there is an option somewhere in whatever browser you use to enlarge the font displayed on websites.

I'm happy to edit or delete my post if it's possible, I don't know yet as it's my first time here.

Editing for most users is limited to about thirty minutes, beyond that it's permanent without intervention. The only major change required was in reducing the font size - which is the only change made - to keep the post more generally easily readable; there is no need for deletion, it is what it is. I also wouldn't worry about presentation too much, we're not grammar and punctuation Nazis here, once it's reasonably legible it should be fine and we don't improve without practice. We also have different styles of expressing ourselves with and that means we're always going to be dealing with responses that are not quite how we would make them, even if we were saying the same thing. If it helps, try focusing on your main points, maybe paragraphing each one out and placing them in a logical sequence of sorts. That would really help clarity and any reader really get your overall conclusion from longer posts such as above; fine enough as is though.

As we say in Hawaii (even though I recently moved after 3 decades there), Mahalo Nui Loa,

Sounds good, hopefully the move was to more pleasant climes or at least as pleasant.

[craighopkinson]

I am compiling a study of my assumptions on energy, consciousness and our universe and I too am a believer in the unlimited power of the mind. For example I believe that we are actually here (as sentient beings) to solve the universe's energy crisis; we create the reality around us using the actualisation of visualisations. Manifestation through conscious thought powered by the connection to the universal mind or sub-conscious. I am sure many of you here have heard of this way of thinking. I am a little perturbed and perplexed at the thought of how many sceptical people there are on here. I thought this was a forum for scientific minds. A mind where all possibilities are not based on whether or not it is plausible within the perimeters of the level of understanding we have now but a mind that pushes all boundaries and doesn't simply throw an idea out until it has been proven to be wrong undoubtedly. Which by the sounds of things here; it hasn't. So how can any of you claim that this is bunkum? I love the idea that the human mind can make something happen to water. We now know that reality is an illusion, not truly physical and that the universe is one consciousness. Or am I wrong in stating that? Isn't that where we are with modern physics? I am annoyed that there are so many of you, that clearly haven't done this experiment, are throwing this out. The only fact here is that we do not know the true answer unless this has been tried and tested again and again and the results have been analysed. You can try and sound as smart as you want but an opinion is an opinion and a scientific fact, to me, is only relevant to the level of understanding we have at the time thus helping us carry out the experiment. Basically the scientific facts, further down the line when we have new information to add to that equation, could be proven wrong. We didn't know the world was round until some body had the idea and was laughed at for it by a bunch of sceptics. It could be absolute non sense. The experiment may fail a thousand times. But until you have seen that for your selves I find it really dull to get so angry about it. Nothing is impossible, just highly improbable...

[Shadowwolf]

Welcome along Mr Hopkinson

The following all respond to Hopkinson’s post above, all quotes are derived from his post alone.

I am compiling a study of my assumptions on energy, consciousness and our universe and I too am a believer in the unlimited power of the mind.

You’re compiling a study of your assumptions on energy, consciousness and universe, I have to ask, why?

…we create the reality around us using the actualisation of visualisations.

Hmmm…, I wonder what trying to actualise away the visualisation of a truck bearing down on you would result in. Reality exists utterly independently and without need of our presence to create it as it did for billions of years prior to our existence.

I am a little perturbed and perplexed at the thought of how many sceptical people there are on here. I thought this was a forum for scientific minds.

Well scientifically inclined minds for sure, that’s why such assertions of cosmic consciousness and their ilk receive the response they do. Not sure why you would find skepticism all that perturbing, I mean it is part of a scientifically inclined mind and not the reactionary denier you appear to imagine a skeptic to be.

A mind where all possibilities are not based on whether or not it is plausible […] until it has been proven to be wrong undoubtedly.

Sounds an awful lot like apologies for lack of evidence, implausibility etc. Nor do we work to prove a claim undoubtedly wrong, the claimant must prove their claim and if they fail at that, the claim doesn’t become valid until proven wrong; burden of proof always lies with them.

Which by the sounds of things here; it hasn't. So how can any of you claim that this is bunkum?

Well, there’s no reliable evidence, mere assertions, lack of scientific rigor, conflict of interest and meddling to create the result sought; that’s enough for me to view it as bunk. However, were you given to entertaining all claims as possible regardless of plausibility, then nothing can ever really be discounted unless proven wrong undoubtedly; a quality nigh on impossible to define when appeals to future maybes flit about. As that would lead us nowhere it behooves us not to entertain such thoughts.

I love the idea that the human mind can make something happen to water.

I’m sure lots of people would also love that idea, or the idea that the human mind can communicate telepathically or that water itself has a memory. Not going to make the slightest difference to the objective reality that none of those things occur or have been show to occur, don’t even have the slightest reason to think they could.

We now know that reality is an illusion, not truly physical and that the universe is one consciousness. Or am I wrong in stating that?

Yes.

Isn't that where we are with modern physics?

No.

I am annoyed that there are so many of you, that clearly haven't done this experiment, are throwing this out.

I thought it was really dull to get so angry, at least that’s what you say later.

Basically the scientific facts, further down the line when we have new information to add to that equation, could be proven wrong.

Creationists like that thought process as well, they imagine that down the line new facts will make nasty old evolution go away for them and elect to assume this will transpire so why wait for pesky facts. Me, what may come doesn’t matter, we deal with what we have and what we have clearly indicates that this claim is without foundation and simply not possible. If new information comes to light to amend this then we shall do so then and only then.

We didn't know the world was round until some body had the idea and was laughed at for it by a bunch of sceptics.

We didn’t know the world was round until someone demonstrated it was, not because some random punter declared it to be so by fiat; those who do that don’t add to knowledge by merely being right accidentally. Oh and just because someone may be laughed at, it does not therefore follow that whatever they were claiming must be objectively true, folks like Timecube guy are just nuts who earn the laughing.

It could be absolute non sense. The experiment may fail a thousand times. But until you have seen that for your selves I find it really dull to get so angry about it. Nothing is impossible, just highly improbable...

So Masaru’s experiments are highly improbable, not seeing what benefit that does for em. Nor do I need to waste my time doing any experiment when the claim is simply groundless on its face, much like I don’t need to exhaustively test homeopathic remedies to know it’s nothing but water or need to subject people to imbibing bleach to know that it’s not a cure for autism. Given what we know in physics, chemistry and biology, which has quite an impressive level of evidence going for it so far, cooked matter being influenced by thought or snowflakes being influenced by so called “good” music are impossible. No one has produced any compelling reason to think any differently.

[M Paul Lloyd]

I am a little perturbed and perplexed at the thought of how many sceptical people there are on here. I thought this was a forum for scientific minds.

A fair point Mr Hopkinson, but surely subjects such as yours (as I understand it) are more suited to philosophical debate than scientific research?

We like to keep an open mind about such things but, not so open that all our brains fall out in the process.

[Jamie]

snowflakes being influenced by so called “good” music are impossible.

It's quite laughable really.

"When water samples are bombarded with heavy metal music or labeled with negative words, or when negative thoughts and emotions are focused intentionally upon them, the water does not form crystals at all and displays chaotic, fragmented structures."

I wonder what would happen if he played some Stryper to the water (terrible Christian heavy metal music). Of course, you wouldn't tell him it was religious and full of 'love' prior to the experiment.

"When Elvis Presley's "Heartbreak Hotel" was played to water, the resulting frozen crystals were split in two."

"Here, you can see the results of taping the words "You Fool" to a container of distilled water. Interestingly, the pattern made by "You Fool" was almost identical to the pattern that emerged when heavy metal music was played. Masaru Emoto wonders in his book whether perhaps heavy metal musicians look upon people as fools."

I'm a heavy metal musician, and he's almost right. I do look upon him as a fool.. Because he is one.

He sees what he wants to see, and makes the 'evidence' fit.

[Creator]

I just did the rice experiment myself and was not sure it would work BUT it did . My jar with hate written on it had a huge black mould growing and my jar with love did not have ANY mould or decomposition of any kind. A lot of the sceptics on here are not understanding that it is all to do with energy and feeling , it's not the word itself but my human powerful emotion that I focus on the rice while feeling either positive and loving or negative and hateful. Maybe shadow wolf , is that the name ? , would like to try this easy experiment and he may just surprise himself. Meanwhile I will go on creating my life consciously knowing how powerful my thoughts are. Be well !

[Powerman]

I tried it on my egg n cress sandwiches at lunchtime and after sending loads of love to one and huge amounts of hate to the other I found that the one that got the love tasted really gorgeous and the one that got all the hate tasted just as gorgeous. So my conclusion is that for some people they just have extra negative energy to turn rice mouldy.

[Shadowwolf]

Maybe shadow wolf , is that the name ?

It is right there, a mere few posts above.

...would like to try this easy experiment and he may just surprise himself.

Here's what I said before on page one:

So he puts some rice into containers, labels them and has kids recite the words for thirty days. Were all the grains of rice checked to ensure that they all contained the same level of contaminants and spores, were the containers sterilised prior to the rice going in, were the lids of equal capacity in their seal, hell were they tightened equally? One grain, a poor seal or spores already in the jar - and it's fifty fifty that the rot happens in the fool jar and not the other - and one could easily go far faster than its neighbour. Then we could have willful tampering to create a desired result or even sub-conscious bias, thereby creating a subtle lack of care in the negative sample by the experimenter who has a desired outcome in mind. Single shot is certainly no good.

Then there is the matter of the words, were they merely recited, was a feeling to be imagined whilst they did so, was this even done on each pass? The words are meaningless in and of themselves as tone or feeling is what gives them context, thank you can be said with no genuine sense of thanks and you fool can be said with fondness and no malice. So if it was merely recite the words then neither would have any positive or negative aspects to bring down one jar and make the other feel good. Also how do we know the kids did as they were asked and not forget most of the time; we don't and we can't, experiment is full of issues.

Then of course there is the small matter of the force of interaction. If positive and negative thoughts effect the rice then how, by what means is this effect being transferred, what physical laws underpin it and how can it be detected? This seems like another one of those mystical forces that does lots but is utterly undetectable and the proponent just cannot be bothered to find out. However why would any thought have any effect on inanimate, cooked rice, it's dead matter, there's nothing to feel good about receiving nice thoughts.

As for random folks; uncontrolled and likely of no value.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But who is doing it, are they folks who already believe Mr Emoto or are likely to believe such claims and hence pre-disposed towards getting a positive result? Have they repeated the experiment themselves a few times? Whilst some may claim they have put good controls in place we don't actually know whether that is just in their mind or not or even if they're just saying it for effect. They were also directly involved as one would expect with home based experiment so blinded this is not. I don't think a whole lot of credibility can be put in ad-hoc experimentation from sources unknown.

I'll also note that as has been observed, the rice is quite, quite dead and the only living things that could react are the fungus and benign agents of natural, necessary decomposition. Your "positive" energy and feelings are killing nature's creatures, for shame.

Meanwhile I will go on creating my life consciously knowing how powerful my thoughts are.

Righto.

[Creator]

Hey there shadow Wolfy , thanks for quoting page 1 at length to me but why don't you try it yourself ?! Can you control your thoughs adequately so that you can send love to one jar and hate to the other ? Because most of the population have very chaotic unfocused thoughts if they have not actively tried to overcome the minds tendency to be unruly ! ......anyway I just wanted to post on this site that I did it and hey ! It worked for me! Something to think about .........unless you are too busy defending your corner to join in the fun

[Shadowwolf]

...thanks for quoting page 1 at length to me but why don't you try it yourself ?!

I quoted it because therein is the reason why it is pointless to do such ad-hoc home experiments, no controls, no reliability etc., hence why I can't be bothered.

Because most of the population have very chaotic unfocused thoughts...

So if I do the jar thing and the 'Love' jar were to go mouldy first, why then you can just declare my mind too chaotic and suggest I try harder next time, no? Is that not normally reserved until I do it, report a failure and thus have a bad result in need of explaining away?

...anyway I just wanted to post on this site that I did it and hey ! It worked for me!

So you say, which is also why such ad-hoc things don't amount to anything, you could be making it up for all anyone else knows.

...unless you are too busy defending your corner to join in the fun

Oh I'm just responding, twice now recently to folks who appeared at random to defend Emoto's corner on an otherwise concluded thread despite all the fun they're apparently having.

[Creator]

life must exhilarating when you know all the answers without even playing in this huge playground called LIfe !

...........anyway thanks for the interaction - its been real !

[MrIsaksson]

life must exhilarating when you know all the answers without even playing in this huge playground called LIfe !

...........anyway thanks for the interaction - its been real !

There are things you dont have to try to know they are just rubbish...

[Creator]

Just keep telling yourself that then , I suppose it's easier for you than opening your mind a tiny sliver ...and heaven forbid actually getting off your behinds and spending half an hour to do this simple experiment !