BBC Focus Magazine

[Lateralman]

Anyhow, the ‘Gap’ I was referring to being, “Were we not intelligent or strong enough to compete?” Presuming that there was competition. I think you have to travel back further in the periodic table. To try to envisage what set of circumstances may have arisen, to force us to walk upright, in the first place.

Given that, we may have been on par for a lengthy period with similar primates, in similar circumstances, in a similar environment.

I believe that before you can truly understand why humankind split from the apes, you have to spend a day or two sitting in a tree.

Now, how many of the people, studying this scientific conundrum, have done that?

Me Tarzan! ‘I talk to the trees, but they don’t seem to listen to me....’

[M Paul Lloyd]

I think you have to travel back further in the periodic table.

Uh? Sorry, but I'm wondering just what the goodness-gracious-me the periodic table has to do with Human evolution Lateral?

Me Tarzan! ‘I talk to the trees, but they don’t seem to listen to me....’

Can't imagine why?

[Shadowwolf]

Uh? Sorry, but I'm wondering just what the goodness-gracious-me the periodic table has to do with Human evolution Lateral?

I'm going to reckon that Lateral doesn't actually know what the periodic table is but recently heard the name, thought it sounded good and should be used.

[Lateralman]

I can assure you chaps that I hear no evil, speak no evil, and see no evil.

Anthropogenesis, human evolution. The periodic table of the human element, you know chemicals. (It says here.)
Anyhow, it is difficult to be serious when referring to an existing tribal division of our arboreal hairy family, who spend the bulk of their time, eating, mating, and generally having fun swinging from high branches.

Anyway, I still think they have to look back further. For example if the environment became arid. What did all the other species of primate do? Drop down from the branches and die?

Look, we all know that Healerman has the answer but he is currently keeping a low profile.

[Lateralman]

Just one more thing! If it was down to me, out over the 260 species of primate we have in the in the world.

I would be inclined to observe the few that have colour vision for a clue to our bipedal evolution.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Lateral for goodness sakes!? This is a periodic table of elements.



Where does it mention anything even remotely related to anythng anthropomorphic??

[Lateralman]

Well I’ll be a monkey’s uncle. You learn somfin’ new every day.

Okay, I give in. We needed to walk upright because we had a lot of shopping to carry.

Give that man a banana!

[M Paul Lloyd]

Well I’ll be a monkey’s uncle. You learn somfin’ new every day.

At last........... progress.

[Lateralman]

Let us say I have evolved.

Just keeping you chaps on your scientific toes. It is a thankless task, but for the sake of all humanity, somebody has to do it...

Anyway, no skirting around some of the points put forward at the start of this thread

Take away all the other variants of humanlike species and the time gap is too big.

You are missing the point. We must have evolved amongst other primates initially.

Why did we break off?

“Were we not strong enough or intelligent enough to compete within a similar environment?”

If we were then we would not have broken away and stayed in the trees with our cousins.

If we were not then we would not have survived, as they would have killed and eaten us.

If the environment changed, leading too starvation, we would have cannibalised one another (as some of us are still doing to this day,) and there would be no evidence available of a ‘Missing Link.’

Perhaps only one small isolated family were forced to leave the main primate groups and in doing so on arid ground didn’t want to get their knuckles burnt by having them dragging on hot sand and so they walked upright.

No human would attempt to walk on all fours on a hot beach.

[Shadowwolf]

Let us say I have evolved.

I'll just let that one slide on past

Take away all the other variants of humanlike species and the time gap is too big.

Too big for what, are you making an argument from incredulity? Mind you, it should go without saying that you don't ignore most relevant variables just so you can argue something.

We must have evolved amongst other primates initially.

Yes and? Why are there chimps, orangutans, gorillas, neanderthals, other animals? It all came from simple single celled organisms so by the rationale you appear to be employing, given the source of all life then all life should be identical. You do realise that evolution is not solely tied to environment, it's an important part but it's not the whole story, there's mutation as well.

“Were we not strong enough or intelligent enough to compete within a similar environment?”

If we were then we would not have broken away and stayed in the trees with our cousins.

If we were not then we would not have survived, as they would have killed and eaten us.

Sorry Lateral, you don't create a limited set of options to choose from and then pretend that those options are the only possible explanation there could be.

Perhaps only one small isolated family were forced to leave the main primate groups and in doing so on arid ground didn’t want to get their knuckles burnt by having them dragging on hot sand and so they walked upright.

Ah, we're back to that 'hot ground' notion. However, as best as I understand it, it would have started small, possibly even from a small group.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Let us say I have evolved.

On the other hand....................... maybe not

[MikeG]

“Were we not strong enough or intelligent enough to compete within a similar environment?”

It's probably safe to say that we were never strong enough to compete with either chimps or gorrilas. As evidence, all we have to do is compare the current relative strength of the species; we don't stack up well against either when it comes down to brute strength. Chimps are well known for hunting other primates, both for food and for sport. Gorillas are fiercely territorial. Taking these two together, it's easy to imagine that we were chased out of both the trees and the forest, moving into the savanah to find our niche. Once there, we adopted bipedalism to spot threats in the tall grass.

[Shadowwolf]

Don't forget that when we diverged - and unless I'm very much mistaken - we would have been quite similar and neither our ancestors nor those of modern chimps would have been anything much like they are today; more so for us. In those early days the difference would not have been so marked and it is probably reading too much from what we see today into the past, that said it is still possible that groups could have been chased amongst other reasons.

[M Paul Lloyd]

I seem to recall a TV documentary some years back where it was suggested that we were able to make use of a food source that was inaccesible to other species, in that our hands allowed us to use stones to break open the bones of scavenged carcasses and get at the marrow and brain tissue inside, both of which are extremly nutritious and it was also suggested that this might have hlepd to develop our bigger brains?

So I'm inclined to think that standing up gave us a better view of our surroundings freeing our hands for using tools such as sticks and stones and our brains developed as a consequence of using same, with no single factor being significant but rather a whole range of new abilities that came together to give us a significant survival advantage?

Possibly?

[Lateralman]

What about mutation? True that is possible, but where are all the many mutations of primate that should be running about. Did none of these suffer from a lack of resources?

Never having any need to venture anywhere? I guess they stayed, mated, and mutated up in the trees, as it was not safe on the ground.
Moreover, we the weaker primate driven to the ground survived amongst the wild beasts did not bother to follow our instincts and climb another tree...really!

Anyhow, no problem chaps, only a couple of suggestions as we are still looking for answers.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Well Lateral evolution relies on mutation to change what went before, but only if a mutation affords the resultant creature a distinct advantage it's going to run the risk of going extinct.

[Lateralman]

I wonder what distinct advantage we had, if we were unable to compete with our fellow primates.

Would we be willing to risk a more gruesome death on the ground? It must have been a jolly long time before we picked up that thighbone and clocked something on the head with it.

On top of that, what has happened to our incredible primordial speed? That would have enabled us to scoot up to the highest branches within seconds. If we mutated that would have taken time. Too long a time to avoid being eaten by the beasts.

It does not add up. I think we were the stronger primate and all this took place within the trees.
When we left them, we were a highly organised pack. Like chimps, only armed.

It may have begun when we hurled down coconuts, to drive away or kill predators.

Actually, I like that idea as it is reminiscent of what primates do today. I wonder what sort of hard fruits were around during that period? Have you ever seen a durian? Our first weapons may have been fruits.

In addition now we know primates ‘BUILD NESTS’ the bending and breaking of branches would have made our hands more dexterous and may have led to the production of a weapon. A sharp pointed stick or a club.

Weapons would have enabled us to cannibalise more of our fellow tree dwellers and so increase our numbers. When that food source ran dry, armed we would have the confidence to spent more time on the ground. Travel to far away places...walk.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Here's the thing though Lateral, what if climate change killed off all but a few of the trees?
Well then our primordial tree climbing abilities would afford us very little advantage..................... but walking, and especially running between what trees were left might have.

[Lateralman]

We walked other species of primate faced with similar problems did not Mr Lloyd. Why is that?

Therefore, if the use of tree tools and weapons allowed us to supplement our diet of fruit and kill more meat from the surrounding area our pack would have grown in size along with our brains and bodies.

We may have become too many and too heavy, like the gorilla, to live in the trees and had no choice but to spread further to look for resources.

Once we began to spend more time on the ground, we would have lost our ‘tails,’ as we no longer had need of them, this would have altered our posture and body shape, eventually contributing to bipedal motion.

By not living in the trees, we would have had to find water and alternative places such as caves to shelter in, the size and scarcity of these resulting in the initial group spreading further, until someone at some point mimicked the wildlife realising how to build a ground shelter by utilising the surrounding resources.

This spread would have resulted in this huge tribe of primate people splitting into factions, separated because of tribal disputes and distance by moving off into different parts of the world, seeking food and shelter.

Then over time, our bodies would have adapted to the environment they occupied into all the different races of people we see living today.

Anyhow, we know most of this, the rest is what this, ‘right monkey’, reckoned happened.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Yes I accept that it is not as simple as that but some did learn to walk/run (for whatever reason) and evolved into our ancestors whilst otheres didn't and they evolved in another direction, or simply died out.
That's the harsh reality of evolution.