BBC Focus Magazine

[Healerman]

Mount Ararat has always been a contentious subject, and continues to be so. Which is why I am bothered by recent work there. It seems that there is a significant site on Mt Ararat, which is currently under investigation, but which is also subject to all kinds of witless speculations, accusations of fakery and all the usual baggage that accompanies religious dogma. There is also some doubt in my mind as to the motivation behind the dig. I hope that Dr Klenck is examining this site without prejudice, but frankly it is hard to tell.

CAMBRIDGE, MA.- Harvard University educated archaeologist and director of the Paleontological Research Corporation, Dr. Joel Klenck, surveyed and completed a preliminary analysis of two sites on Mount Ararat in Turkey discovered by a Kurdish guide, Ahmet Ertugrul. “The research areas are noteworthy”, states Klenck, “and comprise a large wood structure and cave with an archaeological assemblage that appears to be mostly from the Late Epipaleolithic Period.” These assemblages at other sites in the Near East have calibrated radiocarbon dates between 13,100 and 9,600 B.C.

http://www.heritagedaily.com/2011/12/ar ... oric-site/

What are the chances of a truly objective excavation and analysis of this site?

[M Paul Lloyd]

What are the chances of a truly objective excavation and analysis of this site?

Even if the dig is truly objective in all areas it will still depend on how the evidence is subsequently interpreted by other 'scholars' as to what they 'find' . One mention of 'ritual' and well, who knows where that will lead?

[KingPhillip]

Healerman, were your concerns present prior to the article? The secular archaeologist, Klenck, was certainly tenacious in his counter-arguments to criticisms. I suppose he was brought in to settle down everyone involved with his preliminary analysis so full science can be paid to this seemingly ancient structure on a seemingly ancient site.

Why question the motivation of any archaeological dig? Aren't they trying to fill the pages of history long-forgotten, whether it be Stonehenge, Easter Island or the Temple of (name)?

[Shadowwolf]

I hope that Dr Klenck is examining this site without prejudice,

The secular archaeologist, Klenck,

This the same Klenck that wrote The United States in Biblical Prophecy or the wish fulfillment Xian armageddon fiction Rebellion: Campaigns of the Devil against the United States? That's rhetorical because it is the same lad.

Alas this guy is far, far from secular and just as far from examining this dig site without ye olde time religion prejudice. Their apparent archaeological aims lie in confirming events from a certain book, their modus operandi, a trowel in one hand and a bible in the other. Yep, they've an agenda.

Why question the motivation of any archaeological dig?

I think the motivations of certain digs should be questioned. If the researcher/s have an agenda going in, then their work may well be biased towards confirming whatever preconceived notions they want to confirm. Nothing promotes this work back-ways approach quite like religion where the entire endeavour is to find real, tangible evidence for what the believer wishes were true and is contained in the holy writ. With hard evidence they would be relieved of that which they already know to be a poor position, faith.

When the object is something which must be there then they have to find it, a negative is simply not an option unless they can move the object sought elsewhere. Thus everything is interpreted through the lens of the relevant dogma and their claims suspect.

[Healerman]

Thanks for that update on Dr Klenck. It puts certain things in a clearer perspective.

It is kind of ironic that some of the criticism of this dig comes from groups with real hard line religious agendas, who don't like the dates he's coming up with as they predate the biblical creation by several thousand years.

"An unbeliever! Persecute the heretic!" Python M

[MikeG]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that even if all the ice caps were to melt, there still wouldn't be enough water to reach the point where this "artifact" is found. The only way the Ark could have reached that point, would be through tectonic movements; given that the events described in the bible span a period of about 6 thousand years, that just isn't likely. Maybe its time to apply some common sense to this "noteworthy research".

[M Paul Lloyd]

I suspect that the idea of what might be called 'biblical' floods were part of human folk lore long before anyone conceived the old testament idea of Noah and his proverbial Ark.
After all stories about tidal waves (or Tsunami as they are now often referred to) or sub-ducting, coastal earthquakes, mass inundations, such as the flooding of what is now the Mediterranean sea, or even just a flood plain that seemed like a nice place for a settlement, must surely have been amongst our ancestors preferred 'disaster epic' oral histories. So given religions unerring ability to supplant any previous historical artifact/story/ceremony/festival with their own then the idea of a world changing flood is easy to rewrite into biblical 'history' .
Besides, to those of a, contemporary, scholarly nature the evidence was there to be seen in the remains of great beasts that perished in the very rocks, but which we now know to be fossils.
By way of an example the stone used for the pillars in Durham cathedral were chosen especially for there 'fossil' bearing properties as evidence of the great flood.

And MikeG makes a very good point, Mount Ararat is just way too high with the highest peak at 5,137 metres and the lower 3,896 metres. Although that does not preclude the possibility of this excavation being carried out at a lower altitude but even the very foothills lie some 2,000 metres above sea level.

[MikeG]

Actually MPL, the site of the "excavation" is apparently taking place at a height of 4,200 meters, if the Hong Kong team mentioned in Healermans post hasn't changed it's dig site.

Meanwhile, Ararat expeditions by Media Evangelism of Hong Kong culminated in Oct 2004 with the claim; "a wooden structure had been found on Mount Ararat at a height of 4,200 meters."

http://www.worldwideflood.com/flood/ararat/ararat.htm

[M Paul Lloyd]

Well, there you go then.

[KingPhillip]

After a superficial inquiry of Dr. Klenck, I found nothing to dismiss his scientific credentials. Yes, he wrote fiction based on extrapolations of his knowledge of archaeology and religion. Yes, he believes in God and the Word of God. But if his scientific investigations are conducted as such, his motivations only serve to color our perceptions of such findings.

Heritage Daily did a bang-up job rewriting what was essentially a press release from Dr. Klenck's organization with all the talking points highlighted. Kind of odd that it took six plus years for a preliminary analysis to occur.

Would I have to wait that long for the Gower cave wall-etching to get the same treatment?

"When the object is something which must be there then they have to find it, a negative is simply not an option unless they can move the object sought elsewhere. Thus everything is interpreted through the lens of the relevant dogma and their claims suspect."

Higgs boson, dark matter, dark energy, black holes ...

Each religion has its share of competing thoughts and philosophies. Such competition brings pressure from within and without to do the analyses the right way to fend off the criticisms.

[Shadowwolf]

His stock in trade is to confirm biblical events and here his agenda is to confirm the Noachian flood so as to confirm the real world validity of his Xian dogma. I don't see him off looking for Utnapishtim's boat up Mount Nimush, which let's face it is where we get Noah from, no, he's trying to make the Bible real. This is not science, it's work back-ways by deciding the end result a priori and then looking for any evidence to confirm those assumptions until it's found.

As for his books, only the latter is a wish fulfillment armageddon fiction; which itself indicates a holding of rather fundamental evangelistic views. The former,The United States in Biblical Prophecy is not a fictional work and is an allegedly historical work described thusly on Amazon, "This manuscript examines former claims about the United States in biblical prophecy, evaluates newly identified passages that correlate with this polity, and attempts to discover the destiny of the American nation." So they have form for making their chosen superstition the object of their work thus compromising their objectivity.

Higgs boson, dark matter, dark energy, black holes ...

I'm sorry but there is no correlation here, the above are objects posited to exist by a particular scientific theory, developed through reason. Thus if the theory is at least somewhat correct we should expect to find these objects and so confirm or deny the theory's validity or current structure. These theories generally have other components that have been confirmed and so at least have some footing, black holes have been confirmed, dark matter inferred to a degree and the rest, the research goes on. If the Higgs and such are not found then the theory will be reworked or if falsified completely, it will be discarded; such is how science works.

The ark and its ilk were not arrived at by scientific research, they're the product of bronze age goat herders in the Middle East region who were amalgamating another groups made up tales of yore. Tales to explain events and a world they lacked the tools to properly understand, tales we now know to be largely mythical works of allegory and often with a long history of remaking down the ages to suit new societies. At some later stage some other folks decided to make this evidence-less global flood event part of their dogma, thus declaring that it had happened and had done so because the sky tyrant desired it and not merely allegorical tales. Believers, later still, encountered a problem. Allegedly real events should have evidence, however, there is none. Instead of understanding allegory they wander off to confirm whatever fantasy they wish were true and no amount of failure falsifies their notions; at best they will merely retreat to faith. Because it is not merely a theory or hypotheses which is wrong, their entire world view is at stake. If it is conclusively falsified then that means they are no longer special, no longer the centre of the verse, no longer among the saved, no longer destined for eternal reward and all that time spent adhering to pointless rules wasted; that provides significant impetus for bias.

The cart is very much before the horse, something for which they have no good reason to believe exists, something which was not arrived at through reason but merely because it is an old story and some punter long ago randomly decided it was real, and something with a clear history of genesis in older societies tales; it's an exercise by a fervent believer to have more than the faith they deep down know is not good enough. There is not the slightest similarity between that and how scientific hypotheses are developed or researched, otherwise the contradictions alone in that book of bronze age tales would have clearly marked it as the product of humans and not an historical record, or word of some god. Correct analyses would show that, which is why they don't do it.

[Healerman]

And here lies the problem. If good archaeology is done and then prejudiced conclusions arrived at, there's a more than significant chance that any real findings could be lost through opposed prejudice. If the dating is sound, then this is a significant site and deserves proper study. Historically, plenty of scientists with a faith have done good, unprejudiced work. It is the quality of the work done, not their beliefs, that matter.

Seriously, at 4200m, there's no way it's a boat, well not one that floated there. It's a structure, and that's all we know as yet. Hey, we've got a giant gherkin/pineapple in the middle of London.
Go figure.

Personally, I favour the "Black Sea" hypothesis for the origin of all these flood myths. Various authorities give the rise in water level in the Black Sea at between 30 and 80 metres. At 30m, it's still more than enough to invoke divine retribution and spawn epic myths. But let's face it, after the ending of the last ice age, most human populations would have experienced rising seas and the trauma of relocating to new homelands. The precise origins of particular myths are highly unlikely to be found, and will therefore remain highly conjectural, but still interesting.

[Shadowwolf]

Historically, plenty of scientists with a faith have done good, unprejudiced work. It is the quality of the work done, not their beliefs, that matter.

This is true, good work can be done when whatever those beliefs happen to be are set to one side and don't enter into the equation. I find it's a different matter when those beliefs become part of the work or why it is being done in the first place; like creationist geologists trying to create mechanisms that work really fast to accord with a six to ten thousand year age for Terra. At the very least, someone else would have to independently examine the site, one who does not have a predisposition in making events in certain tomes real so as to imply that the teachings of said tome are the one true path.

It's a structure, and that's all we know as yet.

Could be, but you know what will come next. It's not the ark no, that has not been found yet, but it could well be the first shelter / settlement built by the survivors where they had landed using timbers from the vessel.