BBC Focus Magazine

[Shadowwolf]

Where to begin..., should I?

Well let us simply say that our impression is not good, especially when barely a few lines in we are exhorted to, "I want you to reflect, to reason... but not too deeply." Reflect, reason, but don't do so to any depth, a superficial glance and no more. Why? Is it because a generous application of reason might scare away the conjured shades of myth, shine a light and the darkness vanishes?

Which is actually what happens. Any measure of critical analysis and I'm afraid it all begins to crumble very rapidly indeed whilst the sources for it all are exposed. There seem to be clear elements of traditional and Eastern religion, ancient alien theory, psychic nonsense, Von Neumann machines, the Data quest to be human and even the Matrix meshed together; there may be more but these stand out. There is nothing that stands out as particularly new though mayhaps they were never all plugged together in such a manner before.

The piece is liberally sprinkled with bad logic, special pleading, a mess of unwarranted assertions and assumptions, I mean machines so super intelligent and beyond man but yet are eternally hobbled by the human built in "failsafe" as if such a thing could never, ever be bypassed or excised. Then after exterminating the entire verse they conveniently get the Data bug and, well it just goes on. Of course the worst offender of them all is the manner by which the entire edifice of the tale has been protected from reason and debunking. Frequent are lines such as, "...because the machines were in control of creation, they also could ensure that man or no other life form that they created would retain any memory of these events ever taking place. [...] If any individual came too close to working out the truth, via a machine fed thought before their eventual natural demise, they would end the game for this individual sooner. [...] ...they simply ended the game for every life form on earth to begin the circle again by recreating life, once more from scratch, with a new batch of fresh altered life forms this time around." Thereby all requirement for evidence and the stunning lack thereof is excused by these wonderous machines scouring it all away. Hell, were it ever demonstrated to be true we would never know as it would all be rebooted at the same moment which makes the entire idea a pointless abstract. By creating something that cannot be falsified you create religion, the only difference between you and them is that they tend to insert a deity were you put robots.

However, because you have inserted these convenient get out of jail clauses you have created an idea which is essentially meaningless. Your tale with it's scoured history, hidden creators and wipe it all away and start again clean if discovered seems indistinguishable from a verse in which none of this ever happened. It's like a god who has no contact with us and never interferes in any manner, their existence is indistinguishable from their non-existence, thus they do not matter and we may as well assume that they don't exist. One thing does puzzle me though, how did you insert excuses for the lack of evidence for your tale and not realise that you're making up protections for your story as you go?

The entire thing is without merit as regards reality, it can neither be demonstrated nor debunked, it has no purpose, explains nothing and does nothing, a tale of no relevance to objective reality.

Have I made this up?

Yes, most assuredly.

Do I believe it?

I'm actually wondering this myself, do you seriously believe this and what evidence led you to this conclusion given that you have asserted there is none and never can be? Is it all merely because we have not encountered ET? Mere absence of evidence is simply not sufficient to weave this tapestry.

[Dark One]

And I thought Philip K Dick was dead...

If that had been a piece of fiction, Id say it was pretty good, if a bit muddled. But the idea of it as representative of reality...well, the word rhymes with 'Molochs'.

[The Beige Avenger]

eh?

[Lateralman]

The parrot on my shoulder made me do it! Either that or the machine inside of me granted me a stay of execution. On the other hand, perhaps it is already happened and I have entered a parallel world! Where is this white room I am in, who are these men in white coats, why are my arms bound?

Have you ever wondered if the universe had ever teamed with a variety of intelligent life and if any of that intelligent alien life had ever visited the earth just once over the billions of years of its existence? Intelligent life would have left behind a clear visible sign of that visit even before the existence of humankind. Man has only ever stepped on one planet, which is the moon, and on the moon, we planted a flag.

[M Paul Lloyd]

eh?

This may help..... but not necessarily......
we-killed-et-t2106.html

Well I having read and inwardly digested the above I have a few observations.

I agree that as a basis for a work of fiction it works quite well, although the concepts it draws upon are hardly unique and I can see a lot of Asimov (positronics and the laws of robotics for example) in there plus the idea that we are the product of a 'higher' intelligence is quite well covered by such works of fiction as Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy and the Bible.

The problem I have with it is the assumption that machine technology such as robotics will exceed human ability. I realise that meddling with human genetics is repugnant to almost all right thinking people in our modern world but we cannot presume that our far future descendants will think the same way and indeed it may become essential to create genetically modified super humans who are vastly more intelligent can tolerate extreme environments and live for many thousands of years. In which case a journey across hundreds of light years at even modest sub light velocities would be no more difficult than a trip to the seaside.

Two other points worry me rather.
The idea of "the machine inside me" and "the event of my death" but I will try not to dwell too much on either.

[The Beige Avenger]

eh?

This may help..... but not necessarily......
we-killed-et-t2106.html

It helped in as much as I saw the author and the first sentence.

So, it all makes sense now.

Lateralman, get a blog.

[Lateralman]

Thank you for your comments.

I agree. There is a lot of fiction and out there and a lot of crossover but it was mainly the first half of the story that I thought was a little different, because it may one day represent true reality. I could not get the idea out of my mind of ‘friendly machines’ that are not a force for evil, just doing their programmed level best for humanity may equate to no ET and dead planets.

Currently it looks as though only our machines will travel into deep space because it is practical, cheap, and safe and if one goes missing, no one sheds a tear. We are already well down the road to doing more of this. Imagine how clever they are going to be in only a few decades from now with our help. Far smarter than us. This is nothing new, it is already fact and predicted fiction.

Of course, we would like to do a Hans Solo and take a peek for ourselves but by the time we have that one figured out it will be too late.

We speculate about contacting alien life forms and yet are surrounded by what appear to be lifeless empty worlds. We speak of a ‘goldilocks zone’ and yet are aware that life on earth can exist in a wide variety of inhospitable extremes. So where is it hiding out there? For it has had thirteen billion years (so we think) to get up and running. These have always been big topical questions.

A thousand year life pill will leave us stacked like decrepit acrobats balancing on one another’s heads.

Without going on the defensive, I had intended to try to put the idea down simply as an idea but it seemed more suited to a tall relevant tale. Admittedly, I do not have the scientific acumen to flesh it out. I really did my best to try to avoid touching upon creation, aware of Mr Wolfs reaction but could not avoid it. Unless I opted for an ending such as, the machines arriving, back from deep space brimming with information with no one left alive to inform and so imploded. The End.

I realise that one or two of you might be a tad upset because I killed off “DARTH VADER!”

Apologies.

Time to lie down on the grass. Get a blog? Interesting.

[M Paul Lloyd]

Ah yes but, 'some of the most dreadful things imaginable have been done with the best of intentions' and to my way of thinking your benevolent robots would turn us into little more than pets.

I'm for a race of super humans who can take on the machines and win.

[Lateralman]

Super humans would be smart enough to ensure that their machines never harm them and with that decree have harmed everything else.

If we are pets then we must be on a very long leash or in a cage of our own creation.

Life from this planet has wrought destruction in space. That is why we see only dead worlds with no sign of life elsewhere. Yet we have millions of species crammed shoulder to shoulder on this tiny Blue Ball Island in a sea of space. This is a universal mass murder crime case with all the suspects gathered in one location. Here!

Think about it. You are clever blokes. Is this not plausible?

[M Paul Lloyd]

Well only in so much as multiverses might be plausible.

Personally I think the apparent lack of alien species is down to the fact that the further we look into space the deeper we stray into the past and thus are not seeing the universe as it is today. So given that our galaxy alone is some 100,000 light years in diameter and we are pretty much on the edge, well that leaves the possibility of many a post industrial species plenty of time to venture into space undetected. They are most likely out there we just haven't seen them yet. and they won't have seen us either...

[Shadowwolf]

There is a lot of fiction

It's all fiction. Were it just left as that it would be fine but when it's touted as a explanation of our objective reality we've got a problem because it's meaningless fantasy. Something we can never know, never prove nor disprove and thus has no relevance to us, pointless, about as useful as wondering how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

Life from this planet has wrought destruction in space. That is why we see only dead worlds with no sign of life elsewhere. [...] This is a universal mass murder crime case with all the suspects gathered in one location. Here!

No it has not and no we are not galactic mass murderers of any stripe nor were our ancestors. You want that? Well stump up the evidence, except you can't and knowing full well that you cannot provide any evidence you created this excuse that these super intelligent robots have conveniently removed it all and will continue to do so each and every time it's found out.

I realise that one or two of you might be a tad upset because I killed off “DARTH VADER!”

Oh come on, no one is merely lashing out because they've been upset with your latest fantasy ruining their own cherished fictions; though what Darth Vader has to do with it is beyond me.

[Lateralman]

Fuzz balls! Whether it can be proved or disproved once a thought is put forward for other minds to consider it is no longer meaningless. The very act of considering a thought automatically gives it meaning. For to think about it lets it become a fresh option that you might not have considered before. Fantasy for one mind, possible reality for another.

So meaningless fiction can branch into feasible fact given enough time with enough people considering the thought. One idea leads to another.

“Hey! Why don’t we make a wheel that is round instead of square?”

[Shadowwolf]

Fuzz balls! Whether it can be proved or disproved once a thought is put forward for other minds to consider it is no longer meaningless.

As far as I am concerned what you have presented and that it has been presented as an explanation for our objective reality is nothing but a meaningless, nay pointless abstraction. It is as useful as pondering how many angels may dance on a pin head or how long a piece of string is, which is to say not at all.

Do we have reason to suppose that your claim has merit; as in a reason to suppose that your claim is real? No. Can we ever know if your claim is in fact the reality of our situation? No. Does your claim explain our reality or expand our knowledge in any way? No, especially given that we cannot ever know it. Is your claim distinguishable from a universe in which there was no ancient robot probe army, no ancient human race that built them and no galactic genocide? No. Thus as an explanation for our reality, your creation is a pointless abstraction that tells us nothing and you have supplied no reason to think otherwise.

Btw the act of having a thought does not render it meaningful or grant it explanatory power, merely asserting that it is meaningful does not create meaning. As for whether it can proven or dis-proven, it is very much relevant to anything which purports to explain anything about our objective reality. If it cannot be falsified then it is meaningless.

So meaningless fiction can branch into feasible fact given enough time with enough people considering the thought.

This is nothing but self-convincing burble to create a gap in your own mind that provides your notions with a home; it's not making it any more real.

All that said, I'm still waiting to hear why you created the excuse for no evidence of these machines and no way of ever knowing.

[Lateralman]

Evidence! Evidence!

Forgive me your honour, I was grabbed by the Perseids and they made me do it.

I was rather hoping that you guys would give this the scientific nod, and endorse it for me so I can pop it into the post to the Cinema Brothers.

Oh no! Too late!! It’s being released as a blockbuster on wide screen, (and as a bonus 3D) next week!

“And the world held their breath, as he fearlessly danced the Fandango, oblivious to the risks of spaghettification oblivion, twirling and skipping merrily around the outer extreme edges of the black hole!”

[M Paul Lloyd]

Well its difficult to endorse something that lacks in scientific credibility. Sorry.

[Shadowwolf]

I was rather hoping that you guys would give this the scientific nod,

I was rather hoping you would eventually stop treating your imagination as a valid method of deriving explanations of our objective reality and you know, actually start accepting scientific reality as opposed to what you wish it were.

As for the rest of that post, pure bafflegab

[Lateralman]

Difficult to endorse! Pure bafflegab!

Well I guess that you are stuck with me until I complete parts two and three.

“Man discovers he has been duped!” and “Oops, he’s erased once again!”

[Shadowwolf]

Well I guess that you are stuck with me until I complete parts two and three.

Seriously, if posting science fiction is your bag then get a blog. Part One: We Killed ET is nought but a work of imagination, there is no science or worthy explanation of our present reality there and we certainly do not need two more installments of the same. This is a science and technology forum, not an amateur writers.

I'm still waiting to hear why you created the excuse for no evidence of these machines because they conveniently remove it and no way of ever knowing.

[The Beige Avenger]

...
This is a science and technology forum, not an amateur writers.
.....

+1

[Lateralman]

Double slit experiment. + 2