BBC Focus Magazine

[jpYB3Gq]

Interesting.
How is one universe able to affect the next universe? Why is there a cause and effect relationship?
And why is there a feeling of a passage of time? Could it be an psychological illusion?

[The Beige Avenger]

nanotech has been compromised!

[M Paul Lloyd]

It would appear so Mr.A, a fe posts to be removed and further action required it seems?

[Nails]

My limited knowledge of physics and maths tells me that time cannot be constant, it has to be relative to the observer.
That's why you get the time dilation effect when travelling at high speeds, and this is a direct result of (or does it result in?) a fixed speed of light.

As for multiple universes, that is way over my head, I'm still struggling with this one!

[dj howden]

It's been a while since I came and asked the question and started to try and get my head round some quantum mechanics and to be honest the maths was just way over my head.

It didn't stop me thinking about it from time to time because of a gnawing thought that it must be simpler and so this is as simple as I can explain it.

I started with a presupposition that the line of all the equations being used had started with a very close but in mathematical terms wrong start and as everyone is struggling to make it work with presuppositions such as the nuclear strong force, dark force and energy and more I thought i would start with a presupposition that Einstien was wrong.

Out of the maths that is current we have realised that to make it all add up we need alternate universes even to infinity and that the Universe is not what we think it is.

All that said, if we were to go back before all the equations and in that time had a scientist/thinker been left a message to say that there are multiverses and Time is not what you think it is, then the starting equation might have been something a lot more simpler.

When we looked at the atom later on we would have said "There is not enough gravity to hold it all together!" and someone would have said "Hold on, what if all the Universes that atom exists in has garvity so therefore all the Gravity in all the Universes are acting on it at the same Time and Gravity is stronger than we are experiencing at this moment in Time"

The Nuclear Strong Force = 1
Gravity is 6 to the power of -39

Gravity X the Number of Universes = 1

Time is not what we think. Each Atom is in every Universe. It is our observation of the passing or unfolding of the Universe's and each moment in Time is One Universe. Time is the condensing of matter to the singular point where all universes in the atom are the same and Time appears to stop and explains Dark matter. And the expanding of matter is where Atoms are less condensed and therefore less Gravity, and can be free to unfold but being determined by the Gravity acting on them and there fore the World we see and the more fluid Dark Energy.

At least this way the mysterious unseen Universes and Multiverses are experienced and seen, well we all have our own lifetime as an abilty to observe them and they are all happening at the same Time in the Mysterious world of the Atom.

It's our observance that is catching snapshots at the speed of molecular reaction.

As an electron can be everywhere around the atom until it is observed so our observing the Universe freeze frames each Universe that atom exists in.

As I said it's a thought experiment.

[dj howden]

Interesting.
How is one universe able to affect the next universe? Why is there a cause and effect relationship?
And why is there a feeling of a passage of time? Could it be an psychological illusion?

The gravity is binding the universes together so will cause and effect.

Yes it is an illusion caused by us being able to remember earlier Universes

[dj howden]

Interesting.
How is one universe able to affect the next universe? Why is there a cause and effect relationship?
And why is there a feeling of a passage of time? Could it be an psychological illusion?

The gravity is binding the universes together so will cause and effect.

Yes it is an illusion caused by us being able to remember earlier Universes

Not sure if binding is the right word maybe having a determined affect caused by the natural effect of Gravity of each atom and therefore all Universes. what appears to happen does happen and the gravity of previous and future universes will determin how it appears in between.

[dj howden]

As a further thought I did start with the an atom but I'm guessing that it should really atart with the mass of the smallest sub atomic particle and its gravity which would also be in all the Universes. It's observance of or interaction with another subatomic particle, (called a Universe Persisting Relationship? and it's apparent gravity would be only be at the point of observance and therefore much less than we think it is), would then persist through Time and so on till it became an atom which would persist through Time as an atom due to its relationships until a greater force changes the relationships by either fusing it into another Time persisting relationship i.e. from Hydrogen to Helium and so on or it's opposite in fission. Each interaction is a point at which the "observance" occurs and the Relationship persists through many Universes until fission or fusion occurs and creates new relationships between the particles. As atoms they can still form relationships with other atoms based on their state that they are persisting through Time or Universes as and eventually become molecules and so on till we have all the "stuff" that we see and observe and the gravity observed is only the gravity at the point of relationship.

All subatomic particle exists in all Universes but persist through shared Universes due to relationships caused by "Observing" each other.

None of this changes anything other than where you would start with the Maths and an acceptance that there is more to the atom than meets the eye as it were. There are all the dimensions, universes or possibilities that the current maths show which makes up for the possibility of the Universe being different every time it "bangs/stretches"

So if Gravity was 1 and not the tiny force we observe would it make the Maths easier? That's my real question but I am limited by my layman’s knowledge and my maths is used for my shopping lists (hardly enough lol) which is why I came here to ask others who know more than I do.

The energy we see in E = MC squared? Could that be the energy leaking through into one Universe state just as a a black hole is the particles gravity in one Universe state?

I even read in some research that they dismiss gravity in their equations because it is so negligible and maybe it shouldn’t be dismissed but looked at differently.

Gravity = 1

I know I'm not alone in thinking about this stuff so many thanks for reading

[Shadowwolf]

It didn't stop me thinking about it from time to time because of a gnawing thought that it must be simpler and so this is as simple as I can explain it.

However, I think that is a mistake. You cannot impose a demand on reality merely because you think that it must be simpler, there is no reason that it must be simple. Now the simplest explanation is usually the best to go for - occams razor - when hypothesising an explanation but that does not mean that the explanation is itself simple.

...and more I thought i would start with a presupposition that Einstien was wrong.

Unfortunately there is empirical evidence that the theories for which Einstein is famous are correct, you cannot just presuppose that he was wrong, you have to show that he was.

Time is not what we think. Each Atom is in every Universe. It is our observation of the passing or unfolding of the Universe's and each moment in Time is One Universe. Time is the condensing of matter to the singular point where all universes in the atom are the same and Time appears to stop and explains Dark matter. And the expanding of matter is where Atoms are less condensed and therefore less Gravity, and can be free to unfold but being determined by the Gravity acting on them and there fore the World we see and the more fluid Dark Energy.

In the above you say things like, "explains Dark Matter," or "therefore the World we see and the more fluid Dark Energy." However, you don't actually explain how your idea explains Dark Matter or why this idea results in the world we see and more fluid Dark Energy. What even is fluid Dark Energy?

There are all the dimensions, universes or possibilities that the current maths show which makes up for the possibility of the Universe being different every time it "bangs/stretches"

I'm sorry but this sentence does not actually mean anything as far as I can tell.

Yes it is an illusion caused by us being able to remember earlier Universes

The passage of time, the moving from a more ordered state to a more disordered one (entropy) happens without need for us or our terribly short memory as observers.

As a further thought I did start [...] and so on till we have all the "stuff" that we see and observe and the gravity observed is only the gravity at the point of relationship.

At this point you're just making stuff up without a good reason for any of it, why would any of that happen and what evidence is there that any of this is happening? Insisting that it must be simpler is not good enough.

Btw you cannot just arbitrarily say gravity equals one and so on, as far as I can tell that makes no sense at all, may as well say it equals two or ten.

[M Paul Lloyd]

I have to confess that you have rather lost me there dj howden, could you possibly condense your thoughts into a slightly more compact paragraph, only you do seem to be going off in several directions at once.

As for the value of the strong and weak forces I'm inclined to want to stick with the idea that gravity is weak because our universe may only one of a number (eleven seems popular in some quarters) other universes that are invisible to us as they extend beyond our understanding of our four dimensions of spacial motion and time but because gravity has to be shared between these different 'realities' so it is observed to be weak within any one dimension without any obvious reason as to why.

Of course this doesn't explain why the force that keeps atoms together is so strong, unless all matter is linked through these other dimensions, which is where I guess string theory could come into play and why widely separated particles can display identical behaviour because at a fundamental trans-dimensional level they are actually linked in some way.

I can't help but feel that we might be straying a little far off topic even for us mind??

[dj howden]

I know lol thanks, it baffles me too I will come back to it and try and be more deliberate and concise and in truth I probably shouldnt shy away from the maths. I suppose I understand that everyone is guessing how it is and then proving the maths, and even if the maths works it still could be wrong. But it's exciting and we are in exciting times as we discover new things. I was hoping that there is someone here who works on the maths on the models and was hoping that they would be able to say that it wouldnt work and then it would stop annoying me and in truth they must have somehow resolved everything to 1 in the equation by using the nuclear strong and weak force but then I think maybe not because it doesnt work and the equations have a lot of suppositions which is why there are the sceptics on string theory.

Wish I'd left school and done physics lol

thanks paul

[dj howden]

And you are right Shadow but I did think this was a laymans forum and it was a thought experiment and not declaring anyone to be wrong just some fun thinking about this stuff and thoughts and undestandings change and if there are particles that can travel faster than light... who knows and even Einstein declared quantum physics to be bolderdash

Thanks

[M Paul Lloyd]

thanks paul

No problem good sir, although a word of caution regarding the math, whilst I do not claim to be a mathematician of any great worth I do now people who are and I'm pretty sure they would all agree that math can be made to do all sorts of things not all of them absolute proof of anything and to suggest that something is absolutley proven by such methods is therefore not altogether accurate.

[Shadowwolf]

And you are right Shadow but I did think this was a laymans forum and it was a thought experiment...

Well it's a forum for anyone really, layman or specialised if they want to keep things in a manner we can all follow. However, I was just pointing out where I think there is a mistake or mistakes in what you're suggesting which will happen whatever forum it is

[dj howden]

thanks paul

No problem good sir, although a word of caution regarding the math, whilst I do not claim to be a mathematician of any great worth I do now people who are and I'm pretty sure they would all agree that math can be made to do all sorts of things not all of them absolute proof of anything and to suggest that something is absolutley proven by such methods is therefore not altogether accurate.

Absolutely it was either try here or some crackpot website that would enjoy anything without math he he. As i said I like to ponder these things and gnaw till I get to a truth and the only way is to be challenged. If there is math to it, it will be simple and elegant and like yourself I understand and thanks. if anything all we can hope to do is make people think and if it's outside the box then I'm all for it because all true discovery is accidental.

[dj howden]

So rather than having alternative universes that are completely different we have alternate universes lined up next to each other in different dimensions. As we are made of atoms too we are also observing the dimensions and as we do we perceive change and can see time pass. But we have no time just dimensions that can only be observed one at a time but observed one after another we get the same universe which appears the way we observe it now, just one universe which is changing.

I'm no physicist, but I have mulled this one over in the past, from a philosophical standpoint.

In relativity, time is a dimension, just like length, breadth and height. From this perspective, past, present and future are all one, and our perpetual present is a perceptual anacronism.

I have wondered if our perception of the passage of time is based on our shifting through the multiverse, Planck second by Planck second as each individual uncertain quantum state is resolved. I think, at least broadly, you are talking about the same idea, just much more lucidly.

What we need is someone with the math to really rip into this one...Oh yes, and the down to Earth talent to explain it in simple terms afterwards.

Back to the original question, at the relativistic level, time is certainly a variable, but at the quantum level...

Yes Yes Yes

[M Paul Lloyd]

You should put this to Lisa Randall, it would be right up her street I'm sure.

[dj howden]

You should put this to Lisa Randall, it would be right up her street I'm sure.

yes she does seem good thanks I'll have to be a bit clearer than here lol good though much appreciated

[dj howden]

You should put this to Lisa Randall, it would be right up her street I'm sure.

I found a page on facebook where Brian Greene is asking for questions for a science fair coming up

http://www.facebook.com/worldsciencefes ... l&filter=1

I posted the question there in a few lines lol not the elaborate round the gardens here so will keep you updated if he chooses to answer it.

[dj howden]

maybe this is easier to picture

Or put another way that each universe is a 2 dimensional page in a book that when you flick through you see animation (like we did as kids by drawing stick men skipping).

The book (the universe) is the weight of all the pages put together but our observation is of one page at a time being perceived at the speed of molecular interaction in our senses and detectors.

And because we only perceive one page at a time gravity is weaker or appears weaker than it is.